Forked Thread: What would you have done?

[Griogre]

I would have never brought in someone to save them. For victory to be meaningful there has to be the risk of failure. There are really two aspects of RPG games. There is the storyline with the characters and there are the player group dynamics. Bringing in someone to save their characters tells the players the DM will always save them and their choices do not matter. There is no incentive to get better at running your character if the DM is going to save you.

The players asked me (at the very last possible moment) to bring him in to save their butts. Even then, it was only under the stipulation that I split the XP 5 ways (despite their having been 6 characters in the battle). Another reason to bring the missing PC back in was so the player of the now dead fighter could continue to play without being bored to death.

Food for thought - if your players beg you for a 30 level magic item and 1,000,000 gp do you give them that? If you want your players to get better you need to give them an incentive to. The bored fighter character might try to run next time or do something different - like tell the mage to give him the potion next time or whatever. Players will always adapt to the DM's style - to a certain extent. If they really don't like the style then they will leave. It's up to you to decided how hard to push you players to get better.

The D&Di encounter generator said it was the hardest encounter I could pit against my players and it still be balanced. That of course assumes a 6-member party. We only had 5 up until the last 2 rounds.

Some one mentioned it at length already, but you push the encounter difficulty up one level when you have one less PC. If that was the hardest balanced encounter for six PCs then when one less player showed up the new encounter difficulty was high enough you should have had a good idea what was going to happen - lots of character deaths, maybe all of them.

I would really suggest you set your encounters by level of the encounter and adjust them for the number of PCs. You should explain this to you players also, because this means they will always get the same XP no matter the number of characters - that will stop that metagaming thinking where the players are expecting more XP with less characters.

 

[Chen_93]

A hit turn undead should probably have dealt like half the skeleton's HP in damage, not to mention pushing and immobilizing them. There are a couple of squares that could hit every undead creature there, not to mention push some in the well. This should have bought some time. A thunderwave or two should easily have separated the group up a bit to give you some maneuvering room. A flaming sphere behind the creatures would have helped chew em up. Finally slowing the wraiths with freezing ray or whatever would be a good way to keep em away from people. Your wizard needs to be a controller not a glorified nuker. It looks like the party is just focused on damage. This is weak. Conditions are almost always superior, tactically than just throwing out absurd damage.

 

[Obryn]

Turn undead immobilizes undead? Player never mentioned that to me. He must have missed it somehow. He turned them, a bunch of them went flying like 7 squares, then the undeads turn came up and they all charged back into position.

Yep - on a hit, it (1) deals damage, (2) you Push them, and (3) immobilizes them until the end of the cleric's next turn.

Also, keep in mind that undead have a Radiant vulnerability, and that turn undead does Radiant damage - even when it misses. It can bring skeleton warriors and zombies to their knees very quickly.

-O

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

I agree that the players didn't make the best use of the situation - but I think you have to look at yourself, too.

You set up "the hardest possible encounter", which included them being automatically surrounded. Did you offer them any chance of spotting they were about to be ambushed on all sides?

You also, as a DM, need to know what your players can do - specifically when it's such an important thing as Turn Undead. Players can make mistakes, and it's normally a pretty good idea to remind them - even if it's only once - that they've made a mistake and let them correct it.

If you insist on making very hard encounters, don't blame the players if their characters die.

 

[Ravingdork]

I agree that the players didn't make the best use of the situation - but I think you have to look at yourself, too.

You set up "the hardest possible encounter", which included them being automatically surrounded. Did you offer them any chance of spotting they were about to be ambushed on all sides?

You also, as a DM, need to know what your players can do - specifically when it's such an important thing as Turn Undead. Players can make mistakes, and it's normally a pretty good idea to remind them - even if it's only once - that they've made a mistake and let them correct it.

If you insist on making very hard encounters, don't blame the players if their characters die.

I used their passive Perceptions before I announced the surprise round. They all failed.

Also, I deliberately wanted it to be an extremely hard encounter (in which one PC may well die) because cleansing the cursed town of Dortimir of all evil shouldn't be an easy task. What's more, it's something nobody else has done before, so when the surviving PCs pull it off (more or less by accident), their recognition in the campaign world will be that much greater and I can finally introduce them to THE KING of the land for further and greater adventures.

This town is simply a steeping stone to a greater story arc.

 

[jaelis]

Just a small thing, but were the doors to the building indicated on the battle mat? I've noticed that players (including myself) tend to focus pretty tightly on what they see in front of them.

 

[MrMyth]

Honestly, I think it sounds like the blame falls on weak rolls, poor tactics, bad judgement... and the GM.

Putting forward an intentionally hard fight - and then asking, when the party is defeated by it, if this proves your players are idiots - is the sign something is being done wrong... and I don't think the players are the ones to blame.

Let's be clear - assuming these are 8 standard MM skeletons and 2 standard MM Wraiths, this is over a level 6 encounter for a 6 player party - and over a level 7 encounter for 5 players.

Can an encounter that difficult be defeated? Yes, by players moving as a well-oiled machine, using great tactics and with well-designed characters they know in and out. An average party might defeat such an encounter with luck, though it might cost a few players.

But clearly both you and the players are still unfamiliar with some of the powers (like Turn Undead, which if used correctly, could have been pivotal in winning the fight.) Clearly they are not yet used to the characters they are playing, nor have they completely mastered working together smoothly and efficiently.

There isn't anything wrong with this. Especially since, being thrown into such brutal encounters, they are going to have trouble getting the chance to do so.

What I find especially ironic is that you criticize them for not going into a possible escape route, simply because they are afraid they might encounter more enemies and become even more overwhelmed. I mean, why would they possible expect that?

Oh yes - because of the previous situation, when the group ran into an extremely difficult fight, tried to escape, only ran into more monsters, and this ended up being their death sentence.

Now, I don't know if this is the same group - it sounds like you were a player in the earlier scenario and the DM here. But it clearly shows that sometimes, running away can be dangerous. In the previous example, the party got in trouble even though apparently retreating into an already explored area. In this case, running blindly into haunted buildings would strike me as just asking for more monsters to join the fight!

It is within your rights to throw very difficult fights at the party, especially if you want it to be an epic battle to remember. But you really don't get to assign the blame on the players when they don't end up being up to the task.

Personally, I'd advise sticking to much more reasonable encounters - at the very least, try to follow the guidelines in the DMG. Maybe start cranking up the challenge once the players start to master their characters, once they prove themselves ready for some truly difficult fights.

But throwing the hardest recommended challenge at an inexperienced group of 2nd level characters? And not scaling it down when the party size unexpectedly drops?

Complaining when the party has a tough time retreating from the battle (despite fighting enemies who get specific bonuses on Opportunity Attacks?) When fighting enemies several levels above them, who take half damage, weaken enemies, have regeneration, and replicate themselves as the fight starts to go in their favor?

Seriously. This is an extremely tough fight. And while I don't blame you for running it - sometimes there is merit in a truly challenging fight - I think it was a poor move as a DM to throw something like this againt the group. And I think it was downright atrocious to call your group idiots for responding the way they did.

Designing an overwhelmingly tough fight doesn't make you a bad DM. Running a tough fight doesn't make you a bad DM. Calling your players idiots for not being able to overcome your absurdly difficult fight, and hesitating to use tactics that could easily have backfired on them?

That's what makes you a bad DM. Making mistakes is fine, but refusing to learn from them - and even blaming others for them - is a sure sign that things are only likely to get worse, not better.

I don't think you were intentionally out to screw your players over, but I recommend taking a long hard look at how you run the game before putting together an encounter like this in the future.

 

[Ravingdork]

Honestly, I think it sounds like the blame falls on weak rolls, poor tactics, bad judgement... and the GM.

Putting forward an intentionally hard fight - and then asking, when the party is defeated by it, if this proves your players are idiots - is the sign something is being done wrong... and I don't think the players are the ones to blame.

Let's be clear - assuming these are 8 standard MM skeletons and 2 standard MM Wraiths, this is over a level 6 encounter for a 6 player party - and over a level 7 encounter for 5 players.

Can an encounter that difficult be defeated? Yes, by players moving as a well-oiled machine, using great tactics and with well-designed characters they know in and out. An average party might defeat such an encounter with luck, though it might cost a few players.

But clearly both you and the players are still unfamiliar with some of the powers (like Turn Undead, which if used correctly, could have been pivotal in winning the fight.) Clearly they are not yet used to the characters they are playing, nor have they completely mastered working together smoothly and efficiently.

There isn't anything wrong with this. Especially since, being thrown into such brutal encounters, they are going to have trouble getting the chance to do so.

What I find especially ironic is that you criticize them for not going into a possible escape route, simply because they are afraid they might encounter more enemies and become even more overwhelmed. I mean, why would they possible expect that?

Oh yes - because of the previous situation, when the group ran into an extremely difficult fight, tried to escape, only ran into more monsters, and this ended up being their death sentence.

Now, I don't know if this is the same group - it sounds like you were a player in the earlier scenario and the DM here. But it clearly shows that sometimes, running away can be dangerous. In the previous example, the party got in trouble even though apparently retreating into an already explored area. In this case, running blindly into haunted buildings would strike me as just asking for more monsters to join the fight!

It is within your rights to throw very difficult fights at the party, especially if you want it to be an epic battle to remember. But you really don't get to assign the blame on the players when they don't end up being up to the task.

Personally, I'd advise sticking to much more reasonable encounters - at the very least, try to follow the guidelines in the DMG. Maybe start cranking up the challenge once the players start to master their characters, once they prove themselves ready for some truly difficult fights.

But throwing the hardest recommended challenge at an inexperienced group of 2nd level characters? And not scaling it down when the party size unexpectedly drops?

Complaining when the party has a tough time retreating from the battle (despite fighting enemies who get specific bonuses on Opportunity Attacks?) When fighting enemies several levels above them, who take half damage, weaken enemies, have regeneration, and replicate themselves as the fight starts to go in their favor?

Seriously. This is an extremely tough fight. And while I don't blame you for running it - sometimes there is merit in a truly challenging fight - I think it was a poor move as a DM to throw something like this againt the group. And I think it was downright atrocious to call your group idiots for responding the way they did.

Designing an overwhelmingly tough fight doesn't make you a bad DM. Running a tough fight doesn't make you a bad DM. Calling your players idiots for not being able to overcome your absurdly difficult fight, and hesitating to use tactics that could easily have backfired on them?

That's what makes you a bad DM. Making mistakes is fine, but refusing to learn from them - and even blaming others for them - is a sure sign that things are only likely to get worse, not better.

I don't think you were intentionally out to screw your players over, but I recommend taking a long hard look at how you run the game before putting together an encounter like this in the future.

I'll have you know that I have not once called my players idiots or in any way demeaned them due to this game. The only reason I am such a hardass in this thread is because I understand the internet culture well enough to know that such provocative post nets more responses--such as the one you just posted.

Except for the length of the battle, my players were quite happy with the way things went. They were on the edge of their seats the whole time.

Also, expecting more monsters in the houses is kinda stupid. All the monsters came OUTSIDE to fight. It's not like there were monsters in the buildings who somehow didn't here the epic battle taking place right in the middle of town square!

 

[77IM]

Here's what I would have done.

1) Explicitly tell the players that they are outmatched and need to run away. Just come out and say it. "Uh guys, don't worry about defeating them. Just execute a tactical retreat, and come back later with a plan."

2) If they are clearly outmatched -- if the encounter really is impossible -- I give out XP for running away. You could even do it as a skill challenge. It's a sort of consolation prize for the fact that I, the DM, have screwed the players for the needs of the story/setting/whatever.

3) Remind them how to execute a tactical retreat -- or better yet, explain to them where they should be going. "You notice that the wraiths never stray more than 50 ft from the well," for example. If you felt your description of the doors was falling on deaf ears, be sure you have drawn the doors on the map. If you're feeling nice, then when a skeleton misses on a 1, he accidentally knocks a door off its hinges, opening it and showing the players the comfy, skeleton-free interior.

4) Do exactly what you did: Pin them in, play smart, hit them with all you've got. Players never learn tactics and teamwork from easy encounters. Against an even-level challenge, everybody whacks a monster with an encounter-power or two, and maybe there's some flanking and some Healing Word, but that's it. If the players are ever going to step up, it's in encounters like this; and when they do, it will be a really satisfying victory.


BTW, this is totally different than the ooze encounter. In that fight they were literally unable to move; in this one they had plenty of options but felt like relying on rules and abilities instead of their own brains. The question you should ask yourself as the DM is, how could you have been more clear about the threat level, and made sure they were aware of all their options? At a certain point it becomes better to just tell the players explicitly and OOC what sort of stuff they should be doing. After enough of these encounters, they will start to figure it out on their own, and they will like that a lot.

-- 77IM

 

[Yumepenguin]

Making use of an obvious escape route is hardly "jumping through hoops."

EDIT: Also, though I didn't reduce the encounter I did give my players a choice. At the onset of the battle (and twice later on when it started to get "hard") I asked them if they wanted me to bring in the missing PC. They repeatedly said "no, we want the XP to be divided 5 ways, not 6." In the end, even with a TPK looming over their heads, they only agreed to the last minute intervention of the Ranger when I promised to split the XP 5 ways regardless (the saving ranger only got two attacks off anyways).

I find a couple things wrong with this. 1) as stated you should have taken out a couple of skeletons when you learned your sixth player wouldn't be there. Using the words of my DM, "An encounter isn't set in stone until it is encountered". You could've changed it to 10 kobold minions and they wouldn't have know that's how it was supposed to be from the start.

2) XP is always divided by the total number of party members regardless fo whether or not they attended the session in 4e (unless you have a house rule to continue to force somebody to fall behind the rest of your party).

Overall, I think the main issue in this situation was that the encounter was set up for a near TPK - TPK as soon as you didn't remove any monsters when a PC was unable to attend.

That's what I would've done in the situation, made it balanced instead of a deathtrap. I didn't respond to your other thread because I didn't know the module well enough at the time, but I think your DMing was to blame there as well.

The ochre jelly shouldn't have gone unnoticed and had the chance to sneak up on the party. The dire rats shouldn't have been a swat team.

This encounter shouldn't have been in the "too difficult" class for the PCs. You get what you design.