Foulspawn Grue

[BobTheNob]

The foulspawn grue can make four attacks as a standard action (encounter power, recharged on bloody). Each attack is pretty light, so the overall damage is not horrendous for the creatures level. It does however have do an extra 2d6 when it has combat advantage.

What it does not state however is that, unlike the rogue (whos striker damage bears more than a passing resemblance) it is not once per round. Therefore, if this creature strikes 4 times, does it do a total extra 8d6?

Now, unless there is something that I have missed (something is errata maybe?) this seems a tad high to me. But without correction, by RAW, it seems right.

Call to other GM's. What is your position on this? Should similar mechanics on monsters have the same constraint strikers have in that the extra damage can only be applied once per round?

 

[ghearus]

Foulspawn Mangler

I think that you are referring to the foulspawn mangler, but that creature can only make 4 attacks as a standard action twice per encounter, as the power Dagger Dance is an encounter power that recharges when the mangler is first bloodied.

At first glance it seems high, but after looking at similar level skirmishers, the power is not out of line given the lack of powers to grant the mangler tactical movement or debuffs that would grant combat advantage more easily...

still, as a DM you should decide if 4d4+12 + 8d6 (24-76) is too risky when making all four attacks; a critical hit or two could kill anything short of a defender (lvl 8 characters have 46-74 hp at a minimum, by class) if you roll well.

 

[unan oranis]

I'm going with no limit to "CA" damage.

I'm pretty sure that if there were a one use per round limit, that it would be listed in the ability, as it is for the rogue.

Going through all the powers called "combat advantage" in the monster builder - there's a lot of different effects, from 1hp extra damage to 3d8, prone, daze etc. Many of these monsters have AoE abilities, or are heavily reliant on multi-target attacks.

None of them say anything about a maximum, whereas other powers do have notes when they can only be used against one person (there's an AoE power that only affects one of the targets who's defense it overcomes... forget what it's called though)

 

[babinro]

I don't believe there is a limit on the number of times monster's Combat Advantage damage is applied. The above case is pretty extreme, and the odds are well in the PC's favor that it would not get hit by all four attacks.

That being said, it would be unwise as a DM to pit a batch of 4+ of these enemies as the flanking attacks would quickly spiral out of control.

 

[frankthedm]

Every hit, every time. The ability was called sneak attack at one time and it was changed to avoid the confusion.

In the MM, the oni only gains his bonus damage on melee attacks. Also, we dropped the term "sneak attack" from most monsters and used language like "when this creature has combat advantage, it gains X, Y, and Z" precisely to avoid confusing the rogue ability with a benefit a monster might get with CA.

That said, there are creatures that gain bonuses with combat advantage and area attacks.

That seems... somewhat pointless. Except for the name, its almost exactly the same thing.

Names are a potent thing, Call it Sneak Attack and someone may expect it to work like the rogue class ability. "Sneak Attack? That's odd, the oni has an ability it can't normally use. I guess that ability is for when it is disguised and only has a dagger available". Also by not calling it sneak attack, it take ammunition away from folks who want to bitch and moan about a rogue’s sneak attack’s limitations. "How come it gets to sneak attack with a greatsword when I can't?!"

 

[BobTheNob]

Yea, I figured as much. Ah well, sometimes its good to shock players out of their complacancy, and a creature that out of no-where inflicts burst damage such as this can really put the fear of god(s?) into them!

My tanks have damage reudction gear, lets see if they remember to use it

 

[jester_gl]

For a similar issue, see the human daggermaster, a level 7 elite who can make multiple attack per round, at-will and with +2d6 damage with CA, and a crit range of 19-20...and high crit.

That thing is brutal, definitely on my watch list as all this combined make for a brutal opponent.

 

[Turtlejay]

The dim recesses of my memory holds an encounter where I set two displacer beasts against the party (and some trolls and dinosaurs and orcs). IIRC displacer beasts gain extra attacks and that +2d6 damage, so if they both flank they get like a grand total of 12d6 extra damage.

Not sure on the details though.

Jay

 

[Destil]

The dim recesses of my memory holds an encounter where I set two displacer beasts against the party (and some trolls and dinosaurs and orcs). IIRC displacer beasts gain extra attacks and that +2d6 damage, so if they both flank they get like a grand total of 12d6 extra damage.

Not sure on the details though.

Jay

They never got the bonus to damage. I locked them in place with a pre-errata erratad dual-wielding dwarf fighter being fed a third attack per round by the warlord for pretty much the entire fight (at last until they were pretty much dead).

 

[Turtlejay]

Ah, I remember now, it was that when they flanked they could make the three attacks. It wasn't at all germane to the topic at hand, but I feel better now that you've jogged my memory!

Jay

PS - And on topic, this is why looking at teamwork is important in looking at the math and how things go together. Sure, the raw damage sucks, but hopefully your leader/defender/whatever has a way to get you out or get them out of flanking. Hopefully.