Foundation Season 02 (Apple TV+) - SPOILERS

[Stalker0]

I am a big fan of this show, and though I still think the Empire scenes steal the show, i do think the overall narrative has gotten better.

The telepathic lady has been a cool character to watch, and an interesting "is she the villain or isn't she?" back and forth. The latest episode was beautiful (the planet explosion was very cool), and I was so excited to finally get some understanding of Demeziel. I've been wondering if it was her that orchestrated the "genetic drift" that has started to occur. What IS her true ambition.... its cool to see this very inscrutable character whose timespan and motives are so alien to our own that she's really hard to peg down.

There are a few flaws of course, probably the biggest one to me is how easily Dominion acquired footage that showed demeziel as a robot. This super closely guarded secret was way too easy to acquire imo. Also that the memory capacities of the various emperors was so easy for Dusk to find once he started looking....I feel like Demeziel would have covered the tracks there a bit better considering the hundreds of years she has had to iron out the kinks. Then again....perhaps this is all due to the genetic drift, it just never ever would have occurred to previous Cleons to even look at that stuff, and it wasn't until they became "a little different" that they would think to investigate.

My last note, I seriously thought they were going to kill the Cleric Girl, and I was on the edge of my seat, because they have set it up so well. I was like "Harry might absolutely have set someone up to be a martyr to the faith", and.... its still not clear if he did or not, which is part of the fun. Oh he says he thinks about all the people....but does he really?

Also the living Harry's death and "not death". The whole time I was like "ok Harry is not dead, he did some crazy breathing thing or something". Then we see him floating in the water with Salvo....and I went "well damn i was totally wrong, holy cow". And then.....nope turnaround again he is alive! Of course I await the crazy explanation on that one, he's been in that water for over a day now if not a few days.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think the genetic drift was really just some rebel faction trying to undermine the Genetic Dynasty. Just like the Star Bridge's destruction, it's part of society's currents that leads to the downfall of the Empire and thousands of years of barbarism.

I think Demerzel cannot hold a too tight grip on Empire, because she must maintain the illusion of them being in charge. And the problem with the level of tech they have is that every security measure also has a counter, some guards and servants inevitable can be manipulated or just bribed...
But the genetic drifts might have caused more conflicts, because the Empires are behaving less predictable, at least from a micro-management perspective.

From a larger perspective, they are still the same. Like Day can't stop being cruel and vicious, even if he goes out with the intention of achieving peace. He is not just a victim of Cleon's programming, but maybe also the neccessities of the job - if you want to be the absolute ruler of an Empire, you can't be lenient. Of course his entire upbringing neccessarily inflates his ego, too. Not a good combination. Dawn is not there yet and might feel he could act differently, Dusk might be able to grow over it, but it doesn't matter, because Day is in charge.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The final episode was another banger. Lots of strong moments and reveals. (Remember, this is a spoiler thread, so stop reading now if you haven't seen the episode!)

Of course, Day was once again played wonderfully by Lee Pace. And what a nice and deserved ending for this Brother Day! Ironically, Castling is usually done to protect the King...
But a special remark must also be given to the scene between Bel Rios and Hober Mallow - you kinda felt that they were trying to stay calm and stoic in the face of their death, but they also felt uneasy and scared.

Demerzel and Dusk's scene was also wonderful. And the beauty is within this moment of character truths, there was still a major betrayal, as Dusk gets close to Demerzel, marking her to warn Dawn. But was it really a betrayal? Realizing that they are all living in a prison of Cleon I.'s making, did he speak honestly to Demerzel, but also give his brother a fighting chance? Demerzel basically told him she could never allow him to try overcoming her programming, because the same programming would force her to stop him and anyone that would try. He quite possibly truly felt everything he told her, even if he marked her as betrayer to Dawn. And maybe, in this, gave them all a small victory against Cleon's legacy.

I guess a big question is - did Demerzel recieve the real Prime Radiant? Some speculate it might lead her astray and is fake or manipulted. Personally, I tend to assumee it's the real deal, and it might really end up challenging Demerzel. Seldon warned her - "Do you want longevity, or power? You can't have both." What does her programming do if it wants something that seems impossible?

The only thing I wasn't quite fond off was that everyone on Terminus ended up in the Vault. I guess we saw it's gigantic, though the mechanism of how people got inside is stil kinda unclear. It feels a bit too deus ex machina.
But it was an interesting twist that Clawen actually survived and didn't die like Rios assumed. Almost tragic, but not really, because if he hadn't believed that, would he have turned against Day? I guess there is a chance he might have - ultimately, he thought Terminus' destruction would ensure that the war would end then and there, but our dear "Emperor of Peace" wanted even more destruction, maybe that would have turned him against Day with or without Glawen alive.

It was also a very interesting and kinda cruel twist that they ended up proving that the future Gaal saw can be changed by having Salvor die now, and not then. Amusingly, a lot of people thought that the mule and killer of Salvor would end up being that mentalic child. Turns out it's not the mule, but he still kills Salvor...

 

[briggart]

It was really a spectacular episode, a fit ending to a great season. I like to think Dusk was honest with Demerzel, he truly loves her, and she truly loves them. But they are all living in a prison, forced to play the roles Cleon I choose for them. A really tragic moment.

My only minor nitpicking is the repeated emphasis on Day's predictability, which was the key to Seldon's Gambit. But most of Day's behavior was ultimately driven by the assassination attempt, which had been orchestrated by Demerzel. But I guess we don't know enough how psychohistory works, and how much access to external information the First Foundation Hari has, to make educated guess on how much specific individual circumstances can be accounted for in the plan.

We could also make the point that the Cleons, being a succession of almost genetically identical individuals, raised in a very controlled environment, are much more predictable than any other human.

Anyway, I was lukewarm to the show after Season 1, but the new season totally won me over. Looking forward to Season 3.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

It was really a spectacular episode, a fit ending to a great season. I like to think Dusk was honest with Demerzel, he truly loves her, and she truly loves them. But they are all living in a prison, forced to play the roles Cleon I choose for them. A really tragic moment.

My only minor nitpicking is the repeated emphasis on Day's predictability, which was the key to Seldon's Gambit. But most of Day's behavior was ultimately driven by the assassination attempt, which had been orchestrated by Demerzel. But I guess we don't know enough how psychohistory works, and how much access to external information the First Foundation Hari has, to make educated guess on how much specific individual circumstances can be accounted for in the plan.

We could also make the point that the Cleons, being a succession of almost genetically identical individuals, raised in a very controlled environment, are much more predictable than any other human.

Anyway, I was lukewarm to the show after Season 1, but the new season totally won me over. Looking forward to Season 3.

Are you sure most of his behaviour towards Foundation was driven by the assassination attempt?
I actually think it was mostly by the nature of the conflict with the Foundation. The Foundation is a threat to Empire's might. Both because it predicts the Empire's fall, and because it is expanding and starting to creep on territory Empire has interest in. He feels threatened, and he would respond to them, and we know how he responds to anything that challenges him - he destroys it. Maybe he felt a bit more vulnerable after the assassination attempt, but I don't think that makes a big difference. He goes to Terminus with the stated goal of peace, but when he sees what they have and what they do, he gets mad with rage basically. It's not fueled by the assassination attempt. He realizes not just that their tech is advanced, it's also that that they have a total disregard for him. That's represented by the auras they give away for free - something that is almost holy technology reserved only to Empire, given away to common people (ironcally, under the guise of a religion)? It threatens his status and power, it's an affront, that he just can't psychologically tolerate.

 

[briggart]

I can't be sure, that's just my personal interpretation, but I do believe there are several times when we are shown that the assassination is the first place his mind goes.

To be clear, I agree with your assessment of his basic character, but I think it was the assassination that really pushed him over the edge. Without that I believe his response would have been more measured and reasoned, but now he's become paranoid which makes him less rational and more impulsive.

He subjects Dawn and Dusk to memory edits audits, and secretly changes the law so that he will be the only one who can authorize a memory edit of an Empire (well Demerzel still can, but he doesn't know). He gets mad with Sareth in his bedchamber, because he believes she is planning another assassination attempt. There are also subtler hints, e.g., when Sareth's informer requests the memory edits from the attempt, the archivist complains something like "again? he's being going through them over and over again".

But the most telling moment was probably when Bel Rios speaks with Day just after his first encounter with Hober Mallow. Bel Rios reports that the Foundation has jump technology that far surpasses imperial one, that they are trying to convince the Spacer to betray the Empire, which likely means they are preparing for war. And after hearing all this, what does Day do? He turns to Demerzel to ask "could they have sent the assassins?" and then leaves without giving Bel Rios any instruction. And again in the vault, the first thing Day asks Seldon when he finally meets him is "did you send the assassins?".

The aura thing also ties into the assassination. At the beginning, Day is enjoying his fighting with the assassins, he thinks his aura will protect him. He explicitly tell them so. And then his aura fails, and he realizes that he really is in danger. And again, when Hober Mallow jumps into Trantor, Day aura fails and he almost gets killed by Beckie. He is totally in panic there.

He doesn't feel that just his/the Empire status is being threatened, he feels personally, physically in danger.

 

[briggart]

Nevermind.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Brief aside- I also just finished watching Silo. While not perfect, it was certainly compelling (in the sense of ... and what happens next??), and I recommend it.

It would be hard to top the absolute gut-punch of episode 9, and while the final episode didn't quite match it, it certainly lived up to the billing. I have to start by saying that I am not particularly excited by the Mule storyline we are probably going to see in Season 3, and yet this season has given me more than enough faith in the creatives behind the show that I can't wait for the next season.

But while the series finale may have lacked the sheer wow factor of the prior episode, it made up for it in absolutely gut-wrenching scenes enable by brilliant acting. Lee Pace, as always, was spectacular as Day. The interplay between Brother Constant and Hober Mallow, and then Hober Mallow and Bel Rios was perfect.

And Demerzel? Lady Demerzel really knocked it out of the park. The scene with Dusk, alone, was worth the price of admission.

There were times in this episode when it felt just a little deus ex machina, but it all worked because it was grounded in strong performances. If you like science fiction, I can't imagine not loving this show.

 

[Zardnaar]

Quite lijex thus season and followed it up withE1 of One Piece on Betflix which I kinda enjoyed


Low expectations due to S1 but well done Foundation.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Brief aside- I also just finished watching Silo. While not perfect, it was certainly compelling (in the sense of ... and what happens next??), and I recommend it.

It would be hard to top the absolute gut-punch of episode 9, and while the final episode didn't quite match it, it certainly lived up to the billing. I have to start by saying that I am not particularly excited by the Mule storyline we are probably going to see in Season 3, and yet this season has given me more than enough faith in the creatives behind the show that I can't wait for the next season.

But while the series finale may have lacked the sheer wow factor of the prior episode, it made up for it in absolutely gut-wrenching scenes enable by brilliant acting. Lee Pace, as always, was spectacular as Day. The interplay between Brother Constant and Hober Mallow, and then Hober Mallow and Bel Rios was perfect.

And Demerzel? Lady Demerzel really knocked it out of the park. The scene with Dusk, alone, was worth the price of admission.

There were times in this episode when it felt just a little deus ex machina, but it all worked because it was grounded in strong performances. If you like science fiction, I can't imagine not loving this show.

Tech like we've seen in the vault hasn't been shown off elsewhere (both the season 1 exclusion zone and the season 2 TARDIS interior), which makes it feel a bit of a deus ex machina. But - the interior size was shown off before, and it obviously raised the question - What would that be good for? So I guess it was a Chekhov's Deus Ex Machina? There is some suggestion that the tech is related to some of the math behind the Foundation (I think they mention Kalle's folding space stuff), but it might also be related to the Empire's FTL tech (which apparently is also folding space).