D&D General Four Ability Scores

[Aldarc]

Okay, yeah, Constitution is "passive"... but I still like the idea of being able to distinguish between people who are really tough and people who aren't.

I believe that is what class-based HP is for.

 

[Yaarel]

The four abilities you've listed are essentially offensive abilities; Str and Dex are defended by Con and Int and Cha are defended by Wis.

Actually, the foursome of ability scores came into existence from the defensive abilities.

Strength = Fortitude
Dexterity = Reflex
Charisma = Will
Intelligence = Perception (saves versus hiding, invisibility, forgery, illusion)

Less inhibited by a fixed sacred cow, D&D saves are where the more elegant mechanics were able to evolve. The foursome essentially uses these four mechanically useful defenses for both defense and offense.

The defenses are also part of why each in the foursome are more equal in usefulness.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Actually, the foursome of ability scores came into existence from the defensive abilities.

Strength = Fortitude
Dexterity = Reflex
Charisma = Will
Intelligence = Perception (saves versus hiding, invisibility, forgery, illusion)

Less inhibited by a fixed sacred cow, D&D saves are where the more elegant mechanics were able to evolve. The foursome essentially uses these four mechanically useful defenses for both defense and offense.

The defenses are also part of why each in the foursome are more equal in usefulness.

Those might be how you would intend to use them, but aren't their purpose currently. I think that was Quartz's point.

I do think it wouldn't be too difficult to split much of WIS into either INT or CHA, but I would also rather see saves separated from abilities again. There are plenty of people who are dexterous, but have poor reflexes, many strong people, with poor health, and so on.

 

[Aldarc]

I do think it wouldn't be too difficult to split much of WIS into either INT or CHA, but I would also rather see saves separated from abilities again. There are plenty of people who are dexterous, but have poor reflexes, many strong people, with poor health, and so on.

Sure, but this is a matter of how much distinction you want the ability scores. What purpose are they meant to serve for the system? Some people are wise but unobservant. Some people are unobservant but willful. And yet D&D says that they are all Wisdom. We can say that some people are agile but not dexterous, and yet D&D says that it's a trifling matter and combines them anyway into Dexterity, much as Cypher System uses Speed. Fantasy AGE distinguishes between Accuracy and Dexterity. Warhammer Fantasy RP distinguishes between Agility, Dexterity, Initiative, and Ballistic Skill.

I will admit that I have never been satisfied with D&D's ability scores for a variety of reasons; however, the way that some of its fans treat it as perfect or canonical for FRPGs is a bit irritating, even if I never expect it to change for D&D.

All that said, I'm not sure that this thread should be about what ability scores D&D should have, but, rather, what ability scores Yaarel wants for his fantasy heartbreaker. Because it will take a fantasy heartbreaker to make this revised system work. That's fine. I don't think that this belongs as part of the D&D subforum, when it would likely be more appropriate for the General RP subforum.

 

[Yaarel]

This is a D&D thread.

The D&D ability score tradition is fraught, evolves, and continues to provoke frustration, commentary, and suggestions to rethink it. D&D has allowed additional abilities (1e Comeliness, 5e Honor, etcetera), D&D has radically revamped the math (3e), rethought its usefulness in combat (4e), and made separate (1e) or identical (4e and 5e) with saving throws. And so on. The D&D ability score tradition is still in flux.

After looking carefully at the foursome ability system in Forgotten Lands (relating to Tales from the Loop, etcetera), is impressed me how elegant it is AND how easy it is to implement it in D&D 5e, as a rules variant.

Simply using Dexterity for the Athletics skill, and using Intelligence for the Perception skill, solves most of the problems in D&D ability scores. Then using the Strength score for Constitution and using the Charisma score for Wisdom, ensures there are no dump stats, where every stat is worth investing in mechanically, if that is the flavor that a player wants for their character concept.

I feel a foursome that is well thought out, can achieve the optimal balance between the ‘splitters’ and the ‘lumpers’, the most verisimilitudinous gaming benefit for the least cost in complexity.

So, in this thread, it is relevant to look at other games, to see what they are doing with their ability systems, to see what works well, and what works less well.

 

[Yaarel]

I do think it wouldn't be too difficult to split much of WIS into either INT or CHA, but I would also rather see saves separated from abilities again.

Yeah, 5e Wisdom is particularly problematic because it includes two saving throw categories (Will and Perception), while Intelligence is a dump stat.

D&D 4e and 5e made ability scores identical to the saving throws. It makes sense. People who are competent at offense tend to be competent at defense as well.

Even so, the bonuses for defense tend to be different from the bonuses for offense, so each category gets handled separately anyway. So the ability score is more like a general aptitude that tends to influence both of them positively.

There are plenty of people who are dexterous, but have poor reflexes, many strong people, with poor health, and so on.

It depend what one means by the English word ‘dexterity’. If one only means ‘manual dexterity’, then it has nothing to do with dodging, little to do with an AC bonus, and is humorously absurd to save against a Fireball.

However, if one means ‘bodily agility’, then people who are highly agile correlate strongly with quick reflexes (autonomic neural response, gross motor skills).



‘Poor health’ doesnt really make sense in D&D anyway. For example, the Elf traditionally has an epic lifespan − one would assume because of an epic Constitution − but actually tends to have lower Constitution compared to other races. An other example. The D&D 5e death saves are unrelated to Constitution. So even the 1e concept of ‘system shock survival’ no longer exists. The male/female distinction between male upper body strength and female longevity no longer exists in D&D anyway. The concept of health cuts across many D&D mechanics, and is unsystematic.

That said, people who tend to be ‘healthy’ (exercising often, resisting illnesses, healing from injuries) generally tend to be physically stronger than people who are unhealthy.

Having one score for Strength-Constitution means this character is good at melee combat. It is a useful and meaningful number.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Yeah, 5e Wisdom is particularly problematic because it includes two saving throw categories (Will and Perception), while Intelligence is a dump stat.

D&D 4e and 5e made ability scores identical to the saving throws. It makes sense. People who are competent at offense tend to be competent at defense as well.

Even so, the bonuses for defense tend to be different from the bonuses for offense, so each category gets handled separately anyway. So the ability score is more like a general aptitude that tends to influence both of them positively.

Well, depending on the build, there are usually two choices for dump stats for people who want to dump them. For example, while a fighter might not want to dump WIS (to aid in perception and saves), they could just as easily chose CHA as INT for an 8 if they want.

It depend what one means by the English word ‘dexterity’. If one only means ‘manual dexterity’, then it has nothing to do with dodging, little to do with an AC bonus, and is humorously absurd to save against a Fireball.

However, if one means ‘bodily agility’, then people who are highly agile correlate strongly with quick reflexes (autonomic neural response, gross motor skills).

This issue with DEX is it encompasses WAY too much: balance, manual dexterity, agility, reflexes, hand-eye coordination, flexibility, and probably more.

The idea with ability scores in D&D is someone with a high DEX excels at all these things, perhaps to various degrees, but all are strong to some extent.

‘Poor health’ doesnt really make sense in D&D anyway. For example, the Elf traditionally has an epic lifespan − one would assume because of an epic Constitution − but actually tends to have lower Constitution compared to other races. An other example. The D&D 5e death saves are unrelated to Constitution. So even the 1e concept of ‘system shock survival’ no longer exists. The male/female distinction between male upper body strength and female longevity no longer exists in D&D anyway. The concept of health cuts across many D&D mechanics, and is unsystematic.

That said, people who tend to be ‘healthy’ (exercising often, resisting illnesses, healing from injuries) generally tend to be physically stronger than people who are unhealthy.

Having one score for Strength-Constitution means this character is good at melee combat. It is a useful and meaningful number.

The elf physiology cannot be known of course, but I have always thought that "lower" CON was due to their smaller body structure. Their long life is more likely contributed to slower metabolism, etc.

Anyway, we play death saves ARE linked to CON. It is not a CON save, but a CON check since it makes sense that someone with a high CON, robust and healthy, would be more likely to have their body withstand the trauma of injury and self-stabilize. Likewise, a poor CON would be less likely for the body to stabilize due to frailer health, poor diet, etc. (pick your reason really...).

Concepts like system shock are still there, such as the rules for suffering massive damage.

IIRC there was never a distinction between male/female for strength, flexibility, pain tolerance, etc. There should be IMO (say females -2 STR, +1 DEX, +1 CON, or for the female-centric group, males +2 STR, -1 DEX, -1 CON).

But, for example, there are MANY example of strong people, such as a man I work with who I would imagine has a STR 16 or better! would, due to his being very overweight, smoking, and does little cardio, would have a CON 9 or maybe even 8. Likewise, when I ran cross country, I would put my CON around 14, but my STR at 10 at most.

In the idea of a combined STR/CON ability score, how would these people be represented???

 

[Yaarel]

This issue with DEX is it encompasses WAY too much: balance, manual dexterity, agility, reflexes, hand-eye coordination, flexibility, and probably more.

Yeah, Dex is overwhelmingly useful/powerful compared to the other abilities.

One of the benefits of combining Str-Con and Cha-Wis is, they become more equal to Dex.

It occurs to me, if Intelligence handles both Perception (observational skills) and Initiative (notice something coming), then the reallife archetype of an intelligent Fighter becomes easier to build.

 

[Yaarel]

But, for example, there are MANY example of strong people, such as a man I work with who I would imagine has a STR 16 or better! would, due to his being very overweight, smoking, and does little cardio, would have a CON 9 or maybe even 8. Likewise, when I ran cross country, I would put my CON around 14, but my STR at 10 at most.

In the idea of a combined STR/CON ability score, how would these people be represented???

Here there are several factors.

• Lifting weights works better as a separate skill, Weightlifting, that people literally train in (weighttraining). So, characters who have a high Str-Con score get a bonus when making a Weightlifting check.

• For the sake of a clean line, a distinction is made between lifting oneself to move, via Dex, and lifting something else to carry via Str-Con. So the person with high Dex looks more agile or fit, while the person with high Str-Con looks bigger and tougher.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Here there are several factors.

• Lifting weights works better as a separate skill, Weightlifting, that people literally train in (weighttraining). So, characters who have a high Str-Con score get a bonus when making a Weightlifting check.

• For the sake, clean line, a distinction is made between lifting oneself to move, via Dex, and lifting something else to carry via Str-Con. So the person with high Dex looks more agile or fit, while the person with high Str-Con looks bigger and tougher.

But a high STR doesn't have to come from weight-training. Some people, like this guy I work with, is just big and strong. Think of the "grew up on the farm-type".

What about the cross-country runner? Smaller upper body, but great stamina and wind capacity, etc.