Aldarc
Legend
I believe that is what class-based HP is for.Okay, yeah, Constitution is "passive"... but I still like the idea of being able to distinguish between people who are really tough and people who aren't.
I believe that is what class-based HP is for.Okay, yeah, Constitution is "passive"... but I still like the idea of being able to distinguish between people who are really tough and people who aren't.
The four abilities you've listed are essentially offensive abilities; Str and Dex are defended by Con and Int and Cha are defended by Wis.
Actually, the foursome of ability scores came into existence from the defensive abilities.
Strength = Fortitude
Dexterity = Reflex
Charisma = Will
Intelligence = Perception (saves versus hiding, invisibility, forgery, illusion)
Less inhibited by a fixed sacred cow, D&D saves are where the more elegant mechanics were able to evolve. The foursome essentially uses these four mechanically useful defenses for both defense and offense.
The defenses are also part of why each in the foursome are more equal in usefulness.
Sure, but this is a matter of how much distinction you want the ability scores. What purpose are they meant to serve for the system? Some people are wise but unobservant. Some people are unobservant but willful. And yet D&D says that they are all Wisdom. We can say that some people are agile but not dexterous, and yet D&D says that it's a trifling matter and combines them anyway into Dexterity, much as Cypher System uses Speed. Fantasy AGE distinguishes between Accuracy and Dexterity. Warhammer Fantasy RP distinguishes between Agility, Dexterity, Initiative, and Ballistic Skill.I do think it wouldn't be too difficult to split much of WIS into either INT or CHA, but I would also rather see saves separated from abilities again. There are plenty of people who are dexterous, but have poor reflexes, many strong people, with poor health, and so on.
I do think it wouldn't be too difficult to split much of WIS into either INT or CHA, but I would also rather see saves separated from abilities again.
There are plenty of people who are dexterous, but have poor reflexes, many strong people, with poor health, and so on.
Yeah, 5e Wisdom is particularly problematic because it includes two saving throw categories (Will and Perception), while Intelligence is a dump stat.
D&D 4e and 5e made ability scores identical to the saving throws. It makes sense. People who are competent at offense tend to be competent at defense as well.
Even so, the bonuses for defense tend to be different from the bonuses for offense, so each category gets handled separately anyway. So the ability score is more like a general aptitude that tends to influence both of them positively.
It depend what one means by the English word ‘dexterity’. If one only means ‘manual dexterity’, then it has nothing to do with dodging, little to do with an AC bonus, and is humorously absurd to save against a Fireball.
However, if one means ‘bodily agility’, then people who are highly agile correlate strongly with quick reflexes (autonomic neural response, gross motor skills).
‘Poor health’ doesnt really make sense in D&D anyway. For example, the Elf traditionally has an epic lifespan − one would assume because of an epic Constitution − but actually tends to have lower Constitution compared to other races. An other example. The D&D 5e death saves are unrelated to Constitution. So even the 1e concept of ‘system shock survival’ no longer exists. The male/female distinction between male upper body strength and female longevity no longer exists in D&D anyway. The concept of health cuts across many D&D mechanics, and is unsystematic.
That said, people who tend to be ‘healthy’ (exercising often, resisting illnesses, healing from injuries) generally tend to be physically stronger than people who are unhealthy.
Having one score for Strength-Constitution means this character is good at melee combat. It is a useful and meaningful number.
This issue with DEX is it encompasses WAY too much: balance, manual dexterity, agility, reflexes, hand-eye coordination, flexibility, and probably more.
But, for example, there are MANY example of strong people, such as a man I work with who I would imagine has a STR 16 or better! would, due to his being very overweight, smoking, and does little cardio, would have a CON 9 or maybe even 8. Likewise, when I ran cross country, I would put my CON around 14, but my STR at 10 at most.
In the idea of a combined STR/CON ability score, how would these people be represented???
Here there are several factors.
• Lifting weights works better as a separate skill, Weightlifting, that people literally train in (weighttraining). So, characters who have a high Str-Con score get a bonus when making a Weightlifting check.
• For the sake, clean line, a distinction is made between lifting oneself to move, via Dex, and lifting something else to carry via Str-Con. So the person with high Dex looks more agile or fit, while the person with high Str-Con looks bigger and tougher.
But a high STR doesn't have to come from weight-training. Some people, like this guy I work with, is just big and strong. Think of the "grew up on the farm-type".
What about the cross-country runner? Smaller upper body, but great stamina and wind capacity, etc.
Some things in tradition are in flux while other things solidify over time. The name and number of ability scores for D&D have not changed once during the WotC era. I doubt that they will because it is now an iconic part of their brand in terms of how people conceptualize D&D. This is why any game that reformed those ability scores would invariably be a fantasy heartbreaker rather than anything that one would reasonably expect to change within D&D.The D&D ability score tradition is fraught, evolves, and continues to provoke frustration, commentary, and suggestions to rethink it. D&D has allowed additional abilities (1e Comeliness, 5e Honor, etcetera), D&D has radically revamped the math (3e), rethought its usefulness in combat (4e), and made separate (1e) or identical (4e and 5e) with saving throws. And so on. The D&D ability score tradition is still in flux.
I typically like a spread of 3-5 ability scores for games that choose to have ability scores.After looking carefully at the foursome ability system in Forgotten Lands (relating to Tales from the Loop, etcetera), is impressed me how elegant it is AND how easy it is to implement it in D&D 5e, as a rules variant.
I feel a foursome that is well thought out, can achieve the optimal balance between the ‘splitters’ and the ‘lumpers’, the most verisimilitudinous gaming benefit for the least cost in complexity.
When I have more time later, I will provide some other alternatives that have developed. In the mean time, you may enjoy reading several articles from Angry GM:So, in this thread, it is relevant to look at other games, to see what they are doing with their ability systems, to see what works well, and what works less well.
‘Poor health’ doesnt really make sense in D&D anyway.
It's not as if being overweight or negative health consequences of smoking has much bearing in D&D. These are things that may have less to do with their Constitution score but their lifestyle choices. In D&D, these are often relegated to aesthetics. You can make a grossly overweight character with an 18 Constitution. You can say that they are chain-smokers and they would still have a 18 Constitution as far as the game is concerned because D&D is not concerned with simulating these things via their ability scores.But, for example, there are MANY example of strong people, such as a man I work with who I would imagine has a STR 16 or better! would, due to his being very overweight, smoking, and does little cardio, would have a CON 9 or maybe even 8. Likewise, when I ran cross country, I would put my CON around 14, but my STR at 10 at most.
In the idea of a combined STR/CON ability score, how would these people be represented???
It's not as if being overweight or negative health consequences of smoking has much bearing in D&D. These are things that may have less to do with their Constitution score but their lifestyle choices. In D&D, these are often relegated to aesthetics. You can make a grossly overweight character with an 18 Constitution. You can say that they are chain-smokers and they would still have a 18 Constitution as far as the game is concerned because D&D is not concerned with simulating these things via their ability scores.
So how could this work though in a system where Strength and Constitution are combined? Training and Skills. If we look at Forbidden Lands, which Yaarel mentioned several posts earlier, it combines Strength and Constitution under Strength, but it distinguishes between Endurance and Might for skills.
Ability scores certainly do not represent real people nor should we attempt to ascribe ability scores to real people as you are repeatedly, mistakenly attempting to do here. I would kindly dissuade you from thinking about actual people in such crude terms.I disagree because otherwise what do these things represent?
Ability scores certainly do not represent real people nor should we attempt to ascribe ability scores to real people as you are repeatedly, mistakenly attempting to do here. I would kindly dissuade you from thinking about actual people in such crude terms.
I would suggest looking at the actual evidence about what these scores represent given the fact that one can be an overweight chainsmoker in D&D with an 18 Constitution because this may mean that ability scores do not necessarily represent what you expect them to represent.
You certainly could reduce the number of ability scores, but based on my experience with other systems you'd just be moving the granularity around to other parts of the system.
The elf physiology cannot be known of course, but I have always thought that "lower" CON was due to their smaller body structure. Their long life is more likely contributed to slower metabolism, etc.
I typically like a spread of 3-5 ability scores for games that choose to have ability scores.
When I have more time later, I will provide some other alternatives that have developed.
Some things in tradition are in flux while other things solidify over time. The name and number of ability scores for D&D have not changed once during the WotC era. I doubt that they will because it is now an iconic part of their brand in terms of how people conceptualize D&D. This is why any game that reformed those ability scores would invariably be a fantasy heartbreaker rather than anything that one would reasonably expect to change within D&D.