D&D General Four Ability Scores

[5ekyu]

For D&D, a sixsome of abilities comes with two persistent problems − they are unequal in usefulness − they are ambiguous.

For the AGE system, the sixsome improves by being unambiguous, yet remains unequal in usefulness. AGE too can improve further by combining Cunning and Perception, handling magic mentally, and thereby feature the salient foursome.

"Pulling a teammate up is a Strength check, but pulling yourself up is a Dexterity check relating to movement and agility."

To me, the above is the opposite of "elegant".

Thst said, "unequal in usefulness" is in the eye of the challenges. There is no set of abilities which won't have this " problem". - as long as they have any meaningful differences beyond fluff.

If you want equality in usefulness, have the ability scores provide the same effects just with different flavors - I use Int vs stuck door by using the moss aad urine to make a lube.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I would drop Wisdom. It attempts to be too much - perception, willpower, intuition, some knowledge - and it does trample on both Intelligence (some forms of knowledge, interpretive insight, etc.) and Charisma (willpower). The justification that Wisdom includes common sense is a strike against it rather than for it, since the idea that high wisdom characters demonstrate high common sense is laughable. I don't think that Intelligence and Wisdom are that different even when people cite the clueless professor or the like.

Speaking as a clueless (and unobservant) professor, I would say you are quite wrong.

No knowledge is tied to Wisdom in D&D, never has bean. The "knowledge" component of Medicine, Survival, etc comes from the skill itself. You know it if you are proficient in it. You know it better if you have expertise in it. It no different to dex skills - you can learn the technique for picking pockets (skill proficiency) but if you are clumsy (dexterity mod) you will never be very good at it.

And charisma has nothing to do with willpower. Having a strong will and having a forceful personality are completely different. A person with a strong will can stand up under torture. A person with a forceful personality might be able to browbeat a confession from an innocent person, but torture them and they will break in seconds.

And an inner stillness (wisdom) makes you open to the universe around you, whether that be noticing things (perception), having a feel for the natural world (survival), or observing other people (Insight). But note that understanding people does not automatically give you the ability to manipulate them.

 

[Aldarc]

Speaking as a clueless (and unobservant) professor, I would say you are quite wrong.

No knowledge is tied to Wisdom in D&D, never has bean. The "knowledge" component of Medicine, Survival, etc comes from the skill itself. You know it if you are proficient in it. You know it better if you have expertise in it. It no different to dex skills - you can learn the technique for picking pockets (skill proficiency) but if you are clumsy (dexterity mod) you will never be very good at it.

And charisma has nothing to do with willpower. Having a strong will and having a forceful personality are completely different. A person with a strong will can stand up under torture. A person with a forceful personality might be able to browbeat a confession from an innocent person, but torture them and they will break in seconds.

And an inner stillness (wisdom) makes you open to the universe around you, whether that be noticing things (perception), having a feel for the natural world (survival), or observing other people (Insight). But note that understanding people does not automatically give you the ability to manipulate them.

Overall, what I am hearing as an academic as well is that you are a creature of habit when it comes to uncritically justifying the status quo of D&D's traditional attributes.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Overall, what I am hearing as an academic as well is that you are a creature of habit when it comes to uncritically justifying the status quo of D&D's traditional attributes.

"Tradition" is the only thing that makes D&D D&D and not Runequest/GURPS/Rolemaster/Tunnels and Trolls/any other generic fantasy RPG you care to mention.

Nevertheless, just because something is traditional it doesn't make it not true. D&D has always made a good job of defining the differences between it's entirely arbitrary choice of attributes, and players have always made a good job of failing to understand them.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

My opinion is Wis as ability score means the emotional intelligence, psychological maturity, common sense, mental resistance, serenity, sanity and about ethical decisions and long-term consequences.

With high Int you can learn faster or think about more complex ideas, with astuteness you can improve better, faster, be more creative, faster mind in stressful situations and better skills for social manipulation.

 

[Horwath]

Had a same idea while back:

Killing the sacred cow: playing D&D with only 4 abilities instead of 6. And returning to 3 saves instead of 6.

Yes, D&D was played with 6 abilities for 40+ years, but maybe some of them can be removed. Constitution; This should be merged with strength. To get big strength score, you need to work out and working out boosts your stamina. If you want to describe Con as "meat", well to get big...

www.enworld.org

 

[Yaarel]

Pulling yourself up is a Dexterity check relating mobility. Pulling a teammate up is a Strength check relating to carrying.

This is a clean line that separates the squirrel that can climb, jump, and run, from the elephant that can lumber thru anything.

This clean line has many benefits. The same ones who can jump also know how to fall and land. The same ones who can climb also know how to balance. The same ones who can catch themselves from falling can also hang on without losing their grip. The same ones who can dodge can also jump out of the way. And so on.

Dexterity (Athletics) covers everything relating to mobility and physical stunts.

Strength (Weightlifting) covers something else.



Note, Constitution by itself is a passive ability, without any skill. It kinda just sits there and takes a beating. Merging active Strength and passive Constitution creates the fighting stat that represents combat toughness, dealing damage and taking damage.

The resulting abilities, Strength and Dexterity, represent well the dichotomy between toughness and agility.



The mental abilities. Perceptive people are smart, and Intelligence includes it, being observant and sharp. Thus the person who can detect evidence is also knowledgeable enough to recognize and understand what it is that one is looking at. Charisma includes people skills, reading people, responding effectively to each person, understanding a need and inspiring a solution. The English words ‘willpower’ and ‘force of personality’ relate closely and can even be synonymous. The main difference is, it is called ‘force’ when against an easy challenge, and it is called ‘will’ when against a hard challenge.

The resulting abilities, Intelligence and Charisma correspond to the exploration encounter versus the social encounter.

 

[Yaarel]

It is easy for players to implement the ability foursome for a character. Create the character with Dexterity (Athletics) and Intelligence (Perception), only plug in four ability scores, and done.

It is more challenging for the DM to implement it because the DM is constantly referencing pregenerated monster stat blocks that often predetermine the calculations for Perception and Athletics, and so on.

But it is ok to do both simultaneously. Player characters use the foursome. Monsters use the stat blocks as-is. Meanwhile, the DM can use the foursome when creating new monsters, and gradually build up a collection.

To adjudicate any narrative results, the DM can still think in terms of the foursome.

 

[Kinematics]

I had my own rework of the stats, with:

Body - Strength/health/athleticism/etc [Athletics] [non-magic damage]
Agility - Coordination/balance/agility [Sleight of Hand, Stealth] [melee/thrown to-hit]
Mind - Memory/problem solving/willpower [Investigation, Medicine, various lores] [magic/psionics to-hit]
Awareness - Perception/awareness [Perception, Insight, Navigation, Survival] [ranged to-hit]
Presence - Social presence [Deception, Intimidation, Persuasion, Animal Handling]
Spirit - Magical ability [Base stat for all magics] [magic damage/DC]

Of course it's backburner, and I keep fiddling with how it works. But I rather like it in principal, particularly compared to the standard six. I had originally culled it to just 4, but the more I worked on the various things the stats can affect, and how they interact with game balance, the more it got pushed back to 6.

Looking at it now, you can kind of view it as simply changing Con to Spirit, and Wisdom to Awareness, and shifting some skills around. From that perspective, it's easier to reconcile with the original six.

Now I'm off to go fiddle with it again.

 

[Yaarel]

For me, I dont want abilities that are ‘theoretical’.

An ability must have a specific D&D mechanic in-game, preferably one that is useful during every combat.

For example, people often describe Intelligence as relating to ‘memory’. I dont think I have ever seen someone roll to see if they could actually ‘remember’ something. By contrast, Perception checks happen all the time, including during combat. So, the Perception skill makes sense as an aspect of Intelligence (observant people are smart, and Investigation and Perception are practically interchangeable). More importantly, the Perception skill is actually useful, and all by itself makes Intelligence useful. Someone who wants a smart character concept, also gains the utility of being Perceptive during encounters.

The goal of the ability foursome is not only that each one is intuitive and unambiguous, but also that each one is equally useful.