FR Podcast is up

[DandD]

The nature of the divine changed over the years. And perhaps that Mystra-babe didn't do it right with those shards. After all, some human became the new Mystra-hussie, after all, so it doesn't mean that what she planned did really work out, same as that senile old grandma Shar hoped that that Shadow Weave thingie worked out better, but it really didn't.

Sucks to be them.

 

[Primal]

Gnomes don't exist any more, all the cities are wiped out? I thought that they just weren't including Gnomes in the PHB. I didn't know that they were going to kill them off.

Well, it appears that FR Gnomes are retconned into "Core" (MM) Forest Gnomes, so I doubt that kingdoms like Oelerhode or villages like Hardbuckler will appear in 4E Realmslore. Most likely they will be conveniently "forgotten".

I'm a Gray Box kind of guy, so I guess the changes don't upset me. The Realms has become too complicated for me. This is what happens with twenty some years of setting and novels. The shadow weave is a good example of something that I could do without.

I'm a "Gray Box" guy myself, which is *exactly* why I'm so livid and upset about these changes. I've never felt the Realms, Elminster, the other Chosen or Mystra being too complicated to run. I've pretty much ignored most of the changes that have taken place in FR novels, because the RSEs have been happening so rapidly that I've lost count years ago. Sadly, the Shadow Weave will still be around, whether you like it or not.

I thought that the Time of Troubles was kind of stupid and the books were lousy, but it didn't cause me to be as upset as some folks are about the 4e changes. No one has killed the realms, as far as I can tell from the previews. They seem to be alive, but maybe not well, plagues can do that.

Well, I didn't like ToT, either -- they killed three of my favourite (as a DM evil deities and introduced a new "God-of-ALL-Evil" (Cyric) in their stead. Yet the scope of the changes and the shift in the timeline were pretty mild in comparison -- it's almost as if (after hearing about one of Ed's potential "Realmsdoom" scenarios -- the "Spellstorm") they said: "Hey! Let's do Time of Troubles on steroids! We can explain away everything with it, because, well, it's magic! More than that, actually -- it's a frickin' *STORM* of magic! A PLAGUE OF MAGIC! ". *Sigh*. :\

What products would you like to see released for 4e FR. I vote for an Aurora Catalogue.

Space

Well, Volo's Guides would be a good idea for a 4E FR product line, but I doubt that they'll do anything like that, since the whole idea of these "New Realms" were to cut down the level of detail in the setting (unless they want to do another 'Sellplague' for 5E or 6E). Frankly, I don't really care, since my group will keep playing 3E/Pathfinder RPG, and therefore I'm not going to buy any 4E FR stuff.

 

[Primal]

Comparable to... say a meteorite strike. Or maybe a new ice age. Except not so bad, since apparently, races don't go extinct...

No, some of them will apparently be just "forgotten" (e.g. Saurials and 3E Dragonborn) or outright retconned (e.g. Gnomes). In the former case I don't see any difference to extinction. Do you?

And when is the last time an Ice Age or Meteorite Strike shuffled around the whole Cosmology and toppled most of the gods down from their thrones? Hmmm...

 

[The Little Raven]

Ah, but he still has that Divine Essence to play with (and it definitely should grant El more abilities than just Immortality, hey?).

Not necessarily. Things changed. Dramatically. The planes themselves almost fell apart from the backlash. The rules of reality have changed.

And El also has Spellfire plus Psionics, too.

Yeah, I forgot that some developers had a huge boner for the guy and turned him into the Samuel Haight of the Forgotten Realms. Seeing how they didn't give him either of those capabilities in 3rd Edition (they replaced Spellfire with the Chosen Silver Fire ability; they cut psionics from him entirely), I don't think he'll have them now, either.

And did he just lose all his magical items, too? You know, even if stripped of all the other abilities by the designers, he still should have plenty of items in store.

Do you not pay attention to ongoing lore? Shadowdale was invaded by the Zhents, Elminster fled and his tower (and all the stuff in it) was destroyed. Kablooey. Couple that with the deaths/disappearances of his allies, and the Old Sage ain't got much going for him anymore.

 

[The Little Raven]

No, some of them will apparently be just "forgotten" (e.g. Saurials and 3E Dragonborn) or outright retconned (e.g. Gnomes). In the former case I don't see any difference to extinction. Do you?

Got any actual quote about FR gnomes being changed in any way? Or should I just take this as your typical fact-free anti-4e rant?

And when is the last time an Ice Age or Meteorite Strike shuffled around the whole Cosmology and toppled most of the gods down from their thrones? Hmmm...

And when was the last time our world had gods or a cosmology that could be objectively proven? Oh yeah... NEVER.

 

[DandD]

Well, it appears that FR Gnomes are retconned into "Core" (MM) Forest Gnomes, so I doubt that kingdoms like Oelerhode or villages like Hardbuckler will appear in 4E Realmslore. Most likely they will be conveniently "forgotten".

Or perhaps smashed under mountains, or simply transported into the Feywild because of crazy magic effects. Happens all the time on Faerun, after all. In fact, most races' ancestors are aliens from another dimension, either brought in by wizards, or entering this world through stargate-thingies.

Well, I didn't like ToT, either -- they killed three of my favourite (as a DM evil deities and introduced a new "God-of-ALL-Evil" (Cyric) in their stead. Yet the scope of the changes and the shift in the timeline were pretty mild in comparison -- it's almost as if (after hearing about one of Ed's potential "Realmsdoom" scenarios -- the "Spellstorm") they said: "Hey! Let's do Time of Troubles on steroids! We can explain away everything with it, because, well, it's magic! More than that, actually -- it's a frickin' *STORM* of magic! A PLAGUE OF MAGIC! ". *Sigh*. :\

Yes, magic can really explain everything. That's why 100% of all apocalyptic stuff that threatens your run-on-the-mill fantasy world, which the Forgotten Realms are, are always magical in nature.

Well, Volo's Guides would be a good idea for a 4E FR product line, but I doubt that they'll do anything like that, since the whole idea of these "New Realms" were to cut down the level of detail in the setting (unless they want to do another 'Sellplague' for 5E or 6E). Frankly, I don't really care, since my group will keep playing 3E/Pathfinder RPG, and therefore I'm not going to buy any 4E FR stuff.

So, does this mean you won't waste your own time for a forum that is dedicated to a product that you dislike? I mean, I wouldn't waste my time on a AD&D 2nd edition forum either, or more realistically, on the official "The Dark Eye 4th edition"-message board to tell the people there that I have no intention to switch to the new edition. It would frustrate me, and the people there would think of me as disruptive, if I absolutely made it clear I'm not going to change at all, but still attempt to critisize every thing about it. Sometimes, it's just better to let it go, and enjoy the game that works for oneself.

 

[Primal]

You're right, Rich Baker is a damned liar. Wait...

I'm going to take his word over yours, buddy.

Feel free to do so, but first read the final pages in the 'Grand History of the Realms' and also what Rich has revealed about 4E FR in the 'Ask the FR designers'-thread (on the WoTC forums). All of the things I've mentioned are "official" changes verified by Rich or some other WoTC designer.

This is the biggest pile of platitudes I have ever seen. You've basically said, "FR is a world with a bunch of detail and a bunch of fantasy." That hasn't changed.

It hasn't? Could you tell me which 4E FR accessory has all that level of detail we've had ever since the Grey Boxed Set came out? Wow... the lore of tens of thousands of pages stuffed into FRCG, perhaps? If not, it has changed, hasn't it? Because it's not as if Waterdeep or Suzail are the same as in 3E.

Does any of this actually have anything to do with the cosmology? I have to say that it's pretty funny you're getting up in arms about them ret-conning a ret-con. The first one was cool, but the second time around it is totally ruining the Realms, eh? Where do you get this information about them ret-conning the Gnomes and all their important villages and kingdoms. I mean, I understand that the Gnomes are an inherent part of the Realms and all... wait a minute... Finally, you have no grounds to assume that they didn't do their homework when developing the changes. This is a classic example of some fanboy assuming he's more qualified than the professionals who have been entrusted with his favorite property.

Um, I think it was a guy called...wait... Rich Baker? Yeah, that was the name. He said (on those pretty vague and probably unreliable WoTC forums) that FR gnomes will be retconned into "Core" 4E Gnomes in the 4E Monster Manual.

As for the Cosmology changes... you heard that the Spellplague will change the FR Cosmology to match the Core Cosmology? And as the Weave has been the "upholder of all life" on Toril (and all beings have been connected to the Weave), its collapse affects the Cosmology (and the Deities, although not on the level the Spellplague appears to do). I never actually liked the Shadow Weave or the Shade -- in fact, neither of them have *ever* appeared in my campaigns (they do exist, but in the background, waiting for the day if a PC is interested enough to mess with them).

I never claimed that I'm more "qualified" than the 4E FR designers (lest of all Ed, Brian or Rich) -- however, *some* of them apparently have very little experience with FR and its "spirit" or "feel" (IIRC *nobody* has been running FR campaign at WoTC for years). And what's even worse, those designers have apparently not done their "homework" (i.e. poured through all the FR books). That's the only reason I can come up with why some explanations have "holes" you could fly the Spelljammer through. So I can claim that some of the designers haven't done their homework.

Really, it's no different from me being hired into the 4E Eberron Design Team -- I have absolutely no great passions about Eberron one way or the other, and I haven't read a single Eberron book ever. Would that make me a "true professional" in your eyes? Now, if I started writing 4E Eberron stuff, you'd expect me to know all possible Eberron tidbits so that my stuff wouldn't contradict anything published in 3E books, right? And, I'm probably just as "experienced" as a DM as most of the guys working at WoTC. The only "real" difference between me and, say, James Wyatt, is that his work has been published, while mine has not (and you cannot claim that my stuff would be inferior in comparison as you haven't actually played in my campaigns or seen my stuff, right?). If you were referring to being "qualified" in the sense of formal *education*, I can pretty much say that I'm *perfectly* qualified to write anything (since I haven't heard of any TT RPG Designer courses anywhere).

 

[The Little Raven]

The only "real" difference between me and, say, James Wyatt, is that his work has been published, while mine has not (and you cannot claim that my stuff would be inferior in comparison as you haven't actually played in my campaigns or seen my stuff, right?).

So, the only difference is that people are willing to exchange hard currency for his writing and give him creative control over long-standing intellectual properties, and none (to my knowledge) have demonstrated a willingness to do the same for you?

You're right, that's the only difference.

The problem is that it's a hugely important difference.

 

[DandD]

So, the only difference is that people are willing to exchange hard currency for his writing and give him creative control over long-standing intellectual properties, and none (to my knowledge) have demonstrated a willingness to do the same for you?

You're right, that's the only difference.

The problem is that it's a hugely important difference.

Mourn, stop crushing dreams and telling sober truths. Your uber-evil-meter will break the scale, and you know we can't afford repairs.

 

[Primal]

Or perhaps smashed under mountains, or simply transported into the Feywild because of crazy magic effects. Happens all the time on Faerun, after all. In fact, most races' ancestors are aliens from another dimension, either brought in by wizards, or entering this world through stargate-thingies.

Stargate? Oh, you mean portals -- you *do* know that you can't just "dial" any address with them? There's a difference. And there *are* Creator Races native to Toril, you know (humans being one of them, in fact). I very much doubt that Gnome settlements will be even mentioned in FRCG (or any other 4E FR book, for that matter), but it *would* be better if they vanished into the Feywild, for example, than if they're just retconned or completely forgotten/ignored.

Yes, magic can really explain everything. That's why 100% of all apocalyptic stuff that threatens your run-on-the-mill fantasy world, which the Forgotten Realms are, are always magical in nature.

One of my current "Realmsdoom Scenarios" involves the biggest Orc Horde ever to muster (due to good, old-fashioned intrigue) -- nothing magical about it, unless you count the (not-too-many) magical items and spellcasters they have. And there are a lot of things which set the Realms apart from your "run-of-the-mill" fantasy worlds (apparently more than I imagined, if we take a look at the scope of things 4E FR will have).

So, does this mean you won't waste your own time for a forum that is dedicated to a product that you dislike? I mean, I wouldn't waste my time on a AD&D 2nd edition forum either, or more realistically, on the official "The Dark Eye 4th edition"-message board to tell the people there that I have no intention to switch to the new edition. It would frustrate me, and the people there would think of me as disruptive, if I absolutely made it clear I'm not going to change at all, but still attempt to critisize every thing about it. Sometimes, it's just better to let it go, and enjoy the game that works for oneself.

At least I'm passionate about the Realms, and I wish to post my opinions whenever I perceive something which is (in my subjective opinion, of course) either a misconception or misinformation. Since you've admitted that you are not very serious about the Realms, let me ask you, in turn: why are *you* "wasting" your time here, if you're not into FR?