FR Podcast is up

[Primal]

The "forgotten folk" being forgotten is as ironic as it is appropriate.

They're not "forgotten" in my group -- we occasionally play Gnome PCs and my campaigns have actually featured a lot of the "small folk" (halflings and gnomes). Oh, and the village of Hardbuckler actually plays a central role in my current campaign.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Can god make a stone so heavy he can't lift it? Can the god of magic create magic so powerful even she can't break it?

I wouldn't count on Mystras Divine Essence working the way it used to (whatever this was) for Elminster, since the world and its magic has changed.

 

[hong]

And why should I publish it? I don't have any ambitions in that field, and I prefer keeping RPGs as a hobby, not a profession. Neither do I want to desperately seek recognition and fame by posting my stuff on the Internet. Nothing wrong in that either.

Yes, Primal.

 

[Primal]

I'm pretty sure that you know that other human races on the other hand come from other dimensions/planes/however that is called in Forgotten-Realmian, like those Mulhorandi.
Bam, Stargate all over the face!
And you seem to not know what fate attends the gnomes in the 4th edition Forgotten Realms, so you should stop complaining about their fate, if nobody really knows what will happen to them.

I do know that they're being retconned into those wretched 4E monster-Gnomes. And who would the FR equivalent of the Goa'uld? Can't think of any "parasites" posing as false deities. And another thing: I *do* think Unther, Mulhorand and the Orcgate Wars were written before SG came out -- maybe it's the other way around, and whenever you're watching SG you should say: "Bam, Mulhorand all over the face!"

But Orc Hordes are lame and won't destroy the world, and get defeated by high-level heroes easily, unless the Orc Hordes got backup by demons and devils or uber-evil wizards of doom and destruction, which in this case, it's magical once again. Although, the Orc Hordes will need uber-magic anyway, least they get swayed away by your standart-high level wizard, be they NPC or PC, so magic is always involved, and the primary factor.

Lame? Those same orc hordes that have stormed and pillaged their way through half the world? Those same orc hordes that took the combined might of all the civilized races to vanquish? The only time I remember an Orc Horde being shattered by high-level adventures was when the Moonlight Men (led by Mintiper Moonsilver) and their allies broke a (relatively small) Horde in the Turnstone Pass -- and only *seven* (IIRC) of the "triumphant" victors walked away alive (the rest are buried in cairns in the pass). Also remember that they were holding a narrow pass and were prepared to fight the Horde -- that was a significant tactical advantage.

I also have personal experience in 3E about battling a goblinoid horde with a party of high-level (from 13th to 24th level PCs) characters. In addition to this, we had over 150 elite (i.e. mid-to-high level NPCs) allies in that battle, *AND* we were defending a walled city (a very significant advantage in this case). The Horde of 30,000 (mostly *unarmed* and unarmored goblins, but also including some hundreds of orc and hobgoblin "veterans" and even some giants) or so had only a few spellcasters (five? We killed almost all of them before the battle had begun). No demons or devils. So it was a mob of poorly armed and armored goblinoid "rabble" with an occasional "veteran" or a giant -- hardly equivalent to Obould's forces, for example. Did I mention that our small "army" included several Archmages (one PC Wizard of 24th level) and about 70 clerics (many of whom were High Priests). Our spellcasters lobbed spell after spell (I think our PC Wizard was *four* spells per round, thanks to Quicken Spell, 3.0 Haste and a rare 9th level FR spell), using Blade Barriers, Flame Strikes, Reverse Gravity, Fireballs, Fire Spiders, All kinds of 'Wall'-spells and Summon Monster-spells, etc. It felt like fighting an angry swarm of insects with a needle. Even with all that high-level magic at our disposal, and the tactical advantage (cover, for example) we had from the walls, we would have lost. After a grueling fight which saw most of our valiant army slain (including my own fighter), we won when we managed to kill the leaders of that horde. We had killed some thousands (about 5000 all in all) of our enemies, while we lost all but 30 of our "elite" allies. A Pyrrhic victory, at best, but the enemy reatreated. And yes, we played it round by round through several sessions, which makes it pretty easy to say that no *single* Archmage (or even a *group* of Archmages) could single-handedly take on, say, tens of thousands of enemies and hope to win -- even if survived, he'd pretty soon run out of spells.

The "Apocalyptic Horde" I'm referring to would be far more powerful in sheer numbers that the gathered army of the goblinoids at Torglor's Triangle (Battle of Bones). And *they* numbered hundreds of thousands.

Because I'm playing there anyway thanks to our Gamemaster, so I get to know stuff about that setting automatically. I just don't care about it at all if the homelands of my character get stomped by giant mountains from another world or dragon-like humanoids with boobs slaughter his descendants in the fourth edition. Stuff happens. It's 100 years later then. By then, he's dead. Fortunately, I didn't play an elf (because D&D-elves suck).

That doesn't still explain why you're hanging around here -- seems you only care about the setting because you're "forced" to play in it. So, why?

 

[Primal]

Can god make a stone so heavy he can't lift it? Can the god of magic create magic so powerful even she can't break it?

I wouldn't count on Mystras Divine Essence working the way it used to (whatever this was) for Elminster, since the world and its magic has changed.

Mystra's Divine Essence held by the Chosen exists separately from the Weave, Mystra and the Planes, which is why it should not be affected by the Spellplague in any way -- unless *ALL* the deities lose their access to Divine Essence and their powers. I thought most of the deities became Exarch-servitors due to their planes (their 'Places of Power') were destroyed, NOT because their Divine Essences were affected directly by the Spellplague or Mystra's death? No matter how Divine Abilities function in 4E this should be one of the things the designers should keep in mind.

 

[hong]

Mystra's Divine Essence held by the Chosen exists separately from the Weave, Mystra and the Planes, which is why it should not be affected by the Spellplague in any way -- unless *ALL* the deities lose their access to Divine Essence and their powers.

The power of handwavium is infinite.

 

[Primal]

Well, he couldn't save the world before either - he was always planes hopping or busy with other threats. You know, despite the entire world being in danger.

Oh, I thought a lot of that "plane-hopping" had to do with dealing with a threat here and there? Read some of the novels by Ed Greenwood, if you need proof of that. I've posted on a number of threads on three different forums about how some DMs have a problem with Elminster as "Deus-Ex-Machina", and frankly I've become quite tired of it.

However, let me offer you some RL examples of why Elminster might not wish to jump in to save the Realms time after time. First of all, why doesn't U.S. just nuke North Korea, Iran or China -- all are dangerous "tyrannies" who threaten the world peace and use ruthless methods to repress their citizens. They certainly have the *power* to do so -- probably even to take on all three at once. Maybe they fear the international response? Potential acts of retaliation? World War III? Environmental and collateral damage?

Now, hold on to those thoughts. If Elminster (or *all* the Chosen) decided to "go nuclear" on Thayvians, Zhentarim, Larloch et al. -- what do you think would happen? The magical backlash from a magical conflict of that size would be immense, and certainly *not* sanctioned by Mystra. And speaking of Mystra, some of those "villains" are actually her worshippers whose magical research contributes greatly to the spreading of magic (which is one of the goals of Mystra and her servants).

So Elminster is bound the will or Mystra, and being CG he also prefers to act through subtlety -- disguises, false aliases and "proxies" (e.g. the PCs). And why wouldn't he? If El would spend all his time saving the Realms time after time, there would be no need adventurers (and he's intelligent enough to realize this, have no doubt about it!). If El would flit everywhere, unleashing spells and slaying villains left and right (and *IF* Mystra would permit this), nobody else would earn XP or "grow" to become heroes (and defenders of the righterous causes) after his time is up.

Therefore, I think it's safe to say that Elminster acts in the shadows, furthering the agenda of good, because he also knows that sometimes intrigue and subtlety works where "blasting", intimidation and pure force fails. Take a look at 'Silverfall', for example, to see how "limited" the Chosen are, if acting on their own.

I also wish to point out that IF (and that's something I don't agree with) it was absolutely necessary to remove Mystra and her Chosen (plus all the other "bothersome" high-level NPCs) to make FR "playable" again, this Spellplague (i.e. a "worldwide magical catastrophe") is IMO the cheapest and cheesiest trick in the book –- one that you can always use if you can’t come up with anything creative and feel lazy (you *could* do a brilliant work with it, but I haven't seen any proof of that). Sure, you can explain away anything by saying “It’s magic! It’s unpredictable! It’s Time of Troubles on steroids and more!”, but if you try to address individual issues and details, at least make sure you’re consistent in what you are writing and aware of how those details worked in previously published lore.

If the Chosen absolutely should be rendered "powerless", there are ways to do that in a more creative and interesting fashion. I wouldn't have any trouble with "guilt-ridden" and "afraid-to-use-his-powers" Elminster, if, for example, Mystra had (in a moment of utter divine panic) bestowed her powers on her Chosen. And what are the Chosen, after all? Probably little more than mortal tools -- useful and intriguing tools, but tools nonetheless. Now, as Ed has subtly (and not-so-subtly) hinted at the Chosen going slightly insane (i.e. their mortal minds cannot "deal" with the divine essence forever) with each passing year -- therefore, it would completely "in tune" with the previously published Realmslore if the their minds (just like Halaster's) would have completely shattered by the sudden influx of raw divine power. They would have lost control of themselves, and struggling to control the energy, they would have unleashed the Spellplague and shattered whatever still remained of the Weave. Once they regained their senses, they would have found out that some of them were dead and the rest of them had lost most of their powers. What would have been even worse, they had failed in their duty and unleashed the terrible 'Spellstorm' (prophecied by Alaundo) on poor Faerun. Wouldn't that have been a more logical way to explain why El and the rest of the Chosen would have been powerless (or reluctant to use their powers) and "guilt-ridden"? At least I think so, but that's just my subjective opinion -- I also would have preferred the 'Coming of the Black Star'-"Realmsdoom Scenario" (especially as it could be linked to Shar).

 

[Primal]

If it works for the DC-Universe with its bajillions of superheroes, like Superman and Batman and Wonder Woman and Flash and Green Arrow and Zatanna and Dove and Hawk and and and (and comic book fans are as least as nit-picky as roleplayers, in fact, most roleplayers are comic book fans), it also will work and sell well for the Forgotten Realms with its Seven Sisters and Blackstaff and Szasz Tam and Elminster and Drizzt and Manshoon and so on...

The DC Continuity is probably not a good example of a consistent timeline (not that Marvel Continuity is any better) -- every now and then the creative team has decided to eliminate some inconsistencies (or “holes”) with an ‘<Insert your favourite “apocalyptic” term here> Crisis’. And now it appears that something called the ‘Final Crisis’ is looming on the horizon (whoo-pee!). Frankly, I’ve lost count of the changes/retcons ever since ‘Identity Crisis’… for example, is Superboy part of the “official” DC history anymore? I can't tell anymore.

Yeah, Elven Magic has always been better than any other kind of magic in D&D, which is why we had to endure all that elven-crap, with Blue Elves, Dark Elves, Grey Elves, Wood Elves, Wild Elves, Green Elves, Sky Elves, Sea Elves, Mere Elves, Gold Elves, Moon Elves, Silver Elves, High Elves, and all that other elfi-stuff, and that's why gods loose to D&D-elves. Elves in D&D have more "fanbois" than those whacky Forgotten Realms-gods could ever have...

Your list actually includes some subraces that do not exist in the Realms. I strongly advise you to take a look at 'Races of Faerun', okay? ;P

 

[DandD]

I do know that they're being retconned into those wretched 4E monster-Gnomes. And who would the FR equivalent of the Goa'uld? Can't think of any "parasites" posing as false deities. And another thing: I *do* think Unther, Mulhorand and the Orcgate Wars were written before SG came out -- maybe it's the other way around, and whenever you're watching SG you should say: "Bam, Mulhorand all over the face!"

I sure hope that you know that nobody really believes that Stargate predates the Forgotten Realms, not even I. It's after all only a tautology regarding the alienism of some the humans from the Forgotten Realms.

Lame? Those same orc hordes that have stormed and pillaged their way through half the world? Those same orc hordes that took the combined might of all the civilized races to vanquish? The only time I remember an Orc Horde being shattered by high-level adventures was when the Moonlight Men (led by Mintiper Moonsilver) and their allies broke a (relatively small) Horde in the Turnstone Pass -- and only *seven* (IIRC) of the "triumphant" victors walked away alive (the rest are buried in cairns in the pass). Also remember that they were holding a narrow pass and were prepared to fight the Horde -- that was a significant tactical advantage.

I really don't know nor do I wish to know how they fought and where these places are located. If you don't give them uber-demon allies and high level magician support, they'll be easily defeated by high-level wizards with their uber angel allies.

I also have personal experience in 3E about battling a goblinoid horde with a party of high-level ... (and so on)... even if survived, he'd pretty soon run out of spells.

You know, that's why you can summon extraplanar beings with high damage reduction and just steamroll them with powerful iron golems. If your players or your NPCs don't use the really good spells, I can totally see why they do a suboptimal job.

The "Apocalyptic Horde" I'm referring to would be far more powerful in sheer numbers that the gathered army of the goblinoids at Torglor's Triangle (Battle of Bones). And *they* numbered hundreds of thousands.

I also don't know if that goblinoid army at whatever battle even should be considered a threat, if it's them versus a high-level party (or perhaps even epic). In the end, they get plastered easily, and can only win if they get high-level magic support, unless you restrict that campaign to low-level.
Then it might really feel epic, without using the epic rules.

Like "DM of the Rings". With all the crazyness that applies to such a campaign, and the complaints that it will feel hackneyed.

That doesn't still explain why you're hanging around here -- seems you only care about the setting because you're "forced" to play in it. So, why?

I'm pretty sure that if we switch to 4th edition, the GM will take a look at the new material for the new Forgotten Realms. So I'm taking a look at it as well. Who knows, perhaps the new Forgotten Realms may even grow on me, and I might even want to moderate a game there. Or perhaps not. But I really won't care for what happened at all in the 100 years that passed between Mystra dying for the n-th time and the present where gnomes are driven out to the Feywild.

The DC Continuity is probably not a good example of a consistent timeline (not that Marvel Continuity is any better) -- every now and then the creative team has decided to eliminate some inconsistencies (or “holes”) with an ‘<Insert your favourite “apocalyptic” term here> Crisis’. And now it appears that something called the ‘Final Crisis’ is looming on the horizon (whoo-pee!). Frankly, I’ve lost count of the changes/retcons ever since ‘Identity Crisis’… for example, is Superboy part of the “official” DC history anymore? I can't tell anymore.

Yeah, but it still works, and as most roleplayers also are comic book readers who can accept this crap easily, they can also easily accept the changes to the Forgotten Realms. In the end, all that matters is that the people remember that the FR is that world where Elminster and Drizzt live, and where the city of Baldur's Gate lies.

Your list actually includes some subraces that do not exist in the Realms. I strongly advise you to take a look at 'Races of Faerun', okay? ;P

Everything exists in the Forgotten Realms. That's one of its special properties, dude. "Races of Faerun" only introduces more race-creep, like Aasimar, Thieflings, Genasi, some bird-men, and such. It's not the end-all-be-all of the race-glut in Faerun, unfortunately.
At least in 4th edition, some of those thousand elf-subspecies will be collectively regrouped in Eladrin or Elf, and for those who still prefer the out-dated names, they will still be called by their assinine green-elf/gold-elf/wild-elf/moon-elf/sky-elf etc. names. But at least technically, there won't be thousands of stupid elf-subtype-rules anymore.

At least, that was promised.

 

[Imban]

Everything exists in the Forgotten Realms. That's one of its special properties, dude.

I'm pretty sure that Grey Elves don't exist in the Realms. I mean, maybe a very few do, holdovers from 2e, where you could travel between Greyhawk and the Realms, but that's it.

Personally, I'm fine with crunching most of those Elves down to Elves and Eladrin, though I think Aquatic Elves, Avariel, and Drow need to be separate. The Fey'ri / Daemonfey / Half-Fiend Eladrins too, I suppose, though I'd also be fine if they all died in a fire.