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[DandD]

And, as Ed Greenwood has often noted, an "epic" magical duel will cause permanent damage to the Weave -- Elminster and the other Chosen clashing with Larloch would probably cause as much environmental/collateral damage as dropping a small nuke in that spot.

So wait, if two epic magic users battle it out, there will be permanent damages to the Weave, but if the goddess of magic gets gutted to a filet by a uber-crazy god with possible help from another dark goddess from the dawns of time who has worked on her own Weave-copy, and the home plane of the Mystra 3.0 (or is she even already the fourth one?) gets smashed, something like the Spellplague happening would be improbable?

 

[Primal]

It's amazing how novels ignore mechanics.

Unless your goblin horde is led by 20th level goblins, a single archmage could wipe them out. He just bombs Elder Air Elementals on them every day or so from a comfortable height of about half a mile and sits back. After about a month, all the gobbies are dead.

I remember reading a rather lengthy thread on ENworld about a 20th level lich and a million 5th level PC's. The Lich wins.

By the way, that battle is not from any FR novel -- it is mentioned in several 1E/2E FR accessories (I trust that you're familiar with Mintiper Moonsilver?). More detailed notes are to be found in 'Gold and Glory', if you want to take a look at them. Also note that you couldn't summon Elder Air Elementals back in the days of AD&D.

The goblin horde my group faced included a lot of scarred orc/hobgoblin veterans (5th to 10th level warriors with an occasional fighter, rogue or barbarian) and some giants. Oh, we could have let the wizards have "all the fun", summoning Devas and Elementals and whatnot. In fact, we could have all just left and went home, phoning the DM or the wizard's player and asking him how it went (*and* let him gain all the XP). But the trouble is, half the kingdom (and half of its population) would have been destroyed within the month -- and we *were* supposed to defend that besieged city and its tens of thousands of commoners.

Now, if D&D is only about "winning" or "beating" the encounters in the most effective and quickest way, why don't we all just play wizards or clerics, those dreaded CODzillas? Or why don't we just (ab)use the Skill Challenge system in 4E to make it to the final encounter? Just say that you are using Stealth to sneak through the whole complex unnoticed until you find the BBEG -- unless there are some sort of limitations to the system, that could be perfectly legal, ruleswise.

 

[Green Knight]

If I had access to the search function on the ENWorld forums, I would look here, but I'll never be able to find the thread regarding the playability of lame-o-gnomes for the Forgotten Realms anymore.

Only two races will be written out as PC races in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide. The Drow and the Genasi. The Swordmage class will also be getting a write-up. Think you may've misread Genasi for Gnomes or something, cause they're not getting a PC writeup there.

 

[DandD]

The goblin horde my group faced included a lot of scarred orc/hobgoblin veterans (5th to 10th level warriors with an occasional fighter, rogue or barbarian) and some giants. Oh, we could have let the wizards have "all the fun", summoning Devas and Elementals and whatnot. In fact, we could have all just left and went home, phoning the DM or the wizard's player and asking him how it went (*and* let him gain all the XP). But the trouble is, half the kingdom (and half of its population) would have been destroyed within the month -- and we *were* supposed to defend that besieged city and its tens of thousands of commoners.

The uber-wizards and clerics and whatever spellcaster there are in your ranks would have destroyed them in a few days, faster than the poor goblinoids could have ransacked an open barn in an abandoned village.

Now, if D&D is only about "winning" or "beating" the encounters in the most effective and quickest way, why don't we all just play wizards or clerics, those dreaded CODzillas?

Because they have the negative stigma of only being heal-bots for the others. However, should one group really decide to play a cleric/druid party-only, I can easily imagine how frustrated the GM becomes, because they breeze through all the encounters without any problems, unless the GM throws level-inappropriate problems at them.
The Cleric-or-Druid-zilla is one of the many problems that 4th edition tries to rectify, after the guys at Wizards of the Coast found out that in order to make Clerics more attractive, they beefed him up too ridiculously.

Or why don't we just (ab)use the Skill Challenge system in 4E to make it to the final encounter? Just say that you are using Stealth to sneak through the whole complex unnoticed until you find the BBEG -- unless there are some sort of limitations to the system, that could be perfectly legal, ruleswise.

Perhaps. I even hope so. Alas, we don't know how the rules really work, and I personally think that there's a little bit too much hype around that Skill Challenge System for 4th edition. I'm prepared to be underwhelmed, personally, but still hope to be positively surprised.

 

[Primal]

So wait, if two epic magic users battle it out, there will be permanent damages to the Weave, but if the goddess of magic gets gutted to a filet by a uber-crazy god with possible help from another dark goddess from the dawns of time who has worked on her own Weave-copy, and the home plane of the Mystra 3.0 (or is she even already the fourth one?) gets smashed, something like the Spellplague happening would be improbable?

Permanent *local* damage, according to Ed Greenwood (you know, the creator of the Realms) . Any "global" effects would depend on the scope of the struggle itself and who cast what -- a lot of factors. Not every spellbattle would cause damage to the Weave, but Epic spellcasters using every spell at their disposal would. The Shadow Weave was neatly retconned in 3E as having always existed, but now it's being re-retconned into having existed separately from the Weave (go figure).

Also note that the battle took place in Dweomerheart, Mystra's place of power (i.e. probably filled with all sorts of spell triggers, magical wards and whatnot -- *ESPECIALLY* against Cyric and Shar), so she should have had "home field advantage" even against two Greater Deities (and apparently she was also attended by Azuth -- probably Savras, too). Mystra's power is also from the "Dawn of Time", and she is actually the third deity of magic (Mystryl was first, and Mystra 1.0 came after her -- the mortal known as Midnight became Mystra 2.0 after ToT). As I said, the Weave is not "anchored" in the Dweomerheart, nor should Dweomerheart's destruction affect it in any way. If you can come up with a reference that states otherwise, feel free to do present it.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

If Elminster used all his resources (which he probably should, if he took on the likes of Larloch, Szass Tam or Shaaan) -- including Spellfire, his abilities/powers as a Chosen (including Silverfire) and a vast array of powerful/Epic magical items and artifacts. I'd hardly see Delayed Blast Fireball or Improved Invisibility working with Szass Tam, for example -- in fact, even mid-level Zhentarim magelings or Red Wizards should have 'See Invisibility' and resistance (or even immunity) to elements (fire and lightning, at least). And, as Ed Greenwood has often noted, an "epic" magical duel will cause permanent damage to the Weave -- Elminster and the other Chosen clashing with Larloch would probably cause as much environmental/collateral damage as dropping a small nuke in that spot.

I was talking about (high level) threats that the PCs are supposed to engage. I am not talking about "metathreats" that will always exist.
If Elminster needs Spellfire and his Chosen Mystra abilities, then the PCs obviously will need something similar to face these threats, and I really don't see how this can't have the same adverse effects as Elminsters powers.

ote that I could just "handwave" all this away (like Hong apparently suggested), but to me the Realms has always been about little, consistent details -- Oh, ToT *did* introduce *some* elements that contradicted previous Realmslore and I either ignore or rewrote it. This time, however, the scope of the changes is simply so vast (and almost everything we've seen so far is contradictory to the previously published lore) that I simply don't see the point. It's easier just to skip this edition and keep playing in 3E FR.

All the little details you love (and I get why someone can love them) are exactly the reasons why it feels (factually it probably is wrong) so difficult - or nigh impossible - to play (and especially DM) in the Forgotten Realms. There are too many details for a beginner to know and keep in mind, and if you accidentally diverge too much from them, this can seriously hurt the experience for people that remembered some of these details, possibly basing story and character development decisions based on their now invalid knowledge.
There is no way to gauge the important of any detail on the FR, since it is often also based on personal preferences and previous experience.

 

[Primal]

The uber-wizards and clerics and whatever spellcaster there are in your ranks would have destroyed them in a few days, faster than the poor goblinoids could have ransacked an open barn in an abandoned village.

Actually, by the time we arrived they were storming the walls of a large city (with the population of tens of thousands of commoners). Without our involvement, the city would have fallen in hours, not days. So time was of the essence. Besides, the wizard's spell list was not "optimized" for a mass battle.

Because they have the negative stigma of only being heal-bots for the others. However, should one group really decide to play a cleric/druid party-only, I can easily imagine how frustrated the GM becomes, because they breeze through all the encounters without any problems, unless the GM throws level-inappropriate problems at them.
The Cleric-or-Druid-zilla is one of the many problems that 4th edition tries to rectify, after the guys at Wizards of the Coast found out that in order to make Clerics more attractive, they beefed him up too ridiculously.

I agree that it's a very real problem. I've had the "honor" of playing in a group with *both* a high-level cleric and a high-level druid. The rest of us held back the enemy for a few rounds until they've finished with buffing/summoning spells and then proceeded to wipe out the enemies in a round or two. HThere are ways to deal with this problem, however, but that requires that everyone clearly understands how and why these classes are problematic.

Perhaps. I even hope so. Alas, we don't know how the rules really work, and I personally think that there's a little bit too much hype around that Skill Challenge System for 4th edition. I'm prepared to be underwhelmed, personally, but still hope to be positively surprised.

Actually, the Skill Challenge system is one of the few things I like in 4E. And despite my misgivings about the 4E FR Design Team, I'm fairly sure that Mearls, Wyatt, Baker et al. are familiar enough with a number of Indie RPGs to avoid these kind of "pitfalls".

 

[DandD]

Permanent *local* damage, according to Ed Greenwood (you know, the creator of the Realms) . Any "global" effects would depend on the scope of the struggle itself and who cast what -- a lot of factors. Not every spellbattle would cause damage to the Weave, but Epic spellcasters using every spell at their disposal would.

And epic battles between gods wouldn't affect it? Hard to believe...

The Shadow Weave was neatly retconned in 3E as having always existed, but now it's being re-retconned into having existed separately from the Weave (go figure).

What's the difference here? Seems to have always existed separately.

Also note that the battle took place in Dweomerheart, Mystra's place of power (i.e. probably filled with all sorts of spell triggers, magical wards and whatnot -- *ESPECIALLY* against Cyric and Shar), so she should have had "home field advantage" even against two Greater Deities (and apparently she was also attended by Azuth -- probably Savras, too).

Yeah, but appearently, against the might of those two loonie-gods combined, it didn't help. It's like those prisons and prison dimensions for the supervillains in superhero universes. They actually do nothing and aren't worth the time to be installed, because they get breached constantly and easily. Call it Darkseid, the Joker, Brainiac, Red Skull, Loki, Doctor Doom, whatever the name, evil badguys don't break a sweath with the seemingly unpenetrable defenses of the Batcave/Fortress of Solitude/Aunt May's House/Asgard and get to fight the good fight with the good guy (or gal) anyway.

Mystra's power is also from the "Dawn of Time", and she is actually the third deity of magic (Mystryl was first, and Mystra 1.0 came after her -- the mortal known as Midnight became Mystra 2.0 after ToT).

But Magic-Goddess 3.0 hasn't been a goddess that long. She might have screwed up, or got out-tricked by the crazy-joker-like Cyric, and the ancient hag Shar. Happens all the time in the DC-Universe.

As I said, the Weave is not "anchored" in the Dweomerheart, nor should Dweomerheart's destruction affect it in any way.

The Death of Mystra and the Destruction of that plane together might. It didn't happen before, which is why nobody knew that it might cause the Spellplague. Now, everybody knows it better. It just happens that there won't be a Mystra anymore. Oh well, sucks to be her.

 

[The Little Raven]

The Weave is connected to all beings on Toril,

Sourcebook and page number, please.

I know Ed has said this on Candlekeep, but if it's not in a published book, then it isn't canon. Ed may be the guy that originally come up with the idea, but it's no longer his property, and hasn't been for 20 years.

Now, wait a minute… funny you should mention Karsus’ Folly, because I can’t recall any sort of Spellplague taking place during Netheril’s Fall… which should have logically happened from the 4E perspective, since Mystryl died (which should also destroyed the Weave, right?).

Mystryl died and Mystra was born the same instant, which caused the Weave to restructure itself, not to unravel. When Mystra 2.0 died, there was nothing to stabilize it, so it went crazy.

As I already said, I can’t recall the Spellplague happening during ToT, either.

Probably because the gods were no longer in control of their portfolios, since AO (I agree he was a horrible idea) stripped them, so it makes sense that AO would be holding everything together while his punishment is being meted out.

And yet, if those ‘Countdown…’-articles (and Rich’s replies) are to be believed, the Spellplague was triggered by the Death of the Goddess of Magic (Mystra) and the subsequent collapse of the Weave. Uh… talk about consistency there.

Good job ignoring the key difference between all those events: no new goddess of magic popped up to save the day again.

 

[Primal]

Sourcebook and page number, please.

I know Ed has said this on Candlekeep, but if it's not in a published book, then it isn't canon. Ed may be the guy that originally come up with the idea, but it's no longer his property, and hasn't been for 20 years.

IIRC it was mentioned in one of the 1E/2E FR accessories -- 'The Magister', most likely. And whatever Ed says is canon for me, since no one else has the same kind of "understanding" of how the Realms work.

Mystryl died and Mystra was born the same instant, which caused the Weave to restructure itself, not to unravel. When Mystra 2.0 died, there was nothing to stabilize it, so it went crazy.

Yet there was the moment when all magic "died" and Netheril fell, as Karsus lost control of the Weave -- IMO this would have been long enough to begin the Spellplague, if it was linked to the death of the deity of magic (or lack of "caretaking").

Probably because the gods were no longer in control of their portfolios, since AO (I agree he was a horrible idea) stripped them, so it makes sense that AO would be holding everything together while his punishment is being meted out.

Yep, AO was a terrible idea, and I kind of wonder how they're going to keep him in the background in 4E.

Good job ignoring the key difference between all those events: no new goddess of magic popped up to save the day again.

So the Weave is linked to Mystra's existence? I thought she (along with Azuth) were the Guardians and Caretakers of the Weave -- *not* the "source" of its power. And if AO took care of the Weave during ToT, why didn't he do so now? How did Shar stop Mystra 3.0 from ascending? And if she was already "born", how come the Weave didn't restructure itself this time?