PeterWeller said:
No, we’re not dealing with a “Pantheon of over a hundred figures” in 4E anymore –- perhaps you missed it, but *only* twenty or so of the gods will be Deities anymore, and the rest of the deities will be their *servitors*. Let me say it again: only TWENTY deities. Which means that hundreds of shrines, temples, monasteries and strongholds… all vanished? Some of them never even existed, while the rest just fell into ruin? No more racial pantheons? Major temples of Moradin and Corellon appearing in human cities, and temples of Selune and Oghma in dwarven and elven cities? Uh… I don’t know about you, but to me that really “amounts to much”.
No, that’s not what I said –- I merely commented on you saying “you’re going to have the same level of detail in 4E, too”. While the Realms have been hit with a lot of RSEs, we have been pretty much free to ignore them, as the events and effects have mostly concerned and appeared in the novels. Besides, most changes have had little impact outside their "area of effect" -- I can apply the "fluff" and NPCs from the Volo's Guides, for example.
And “time-neutral” lore when the “leap” is 100 years forward, while even the planes and deities themselves have shuddered at the hands of a highly-magical catastrophe? Uh, I am talking about architectural details, NPCs, economy, political factions, city/town/village maps, geography, etc. With flying mountains and wide-spread poverty and misery? Monsters roaming the countryside (outside the ‘Points of Light’) in untold numbers? Temples, shrines, monasteries and strongholds of almost 90% of the 3E deities gone? And no more racial pantheons (which influences a lot of things, in the end, even “fluff-wise”)? Tell me -- if the “fluff” hasn’t changed really changed in 4E (in Waterdeep to use your example), why has Ed Greenwood written that “100-pages 4E Waterdeep Fluff Bible”, hey? And, how could I apply *any* 1E/2E/3E “fluffy” lore to places like Baldur’s Gate, whose population has soared to millions (which has an effect on pretty much everything, especially economy, crime, architecture, racial balance, organizations/factions and so on)?
And also lose their PC class abilities, to boot. And if I’m not completely senile, I recall gnomes becoming forest-dwelling fey?
The Weave is connected to all beings on Toril, so even when Elminster is “plane-hopping”, he is still part of the Weave and the Weave is within him (and Dead Magic Zones are “holes” in the Weave – it’s not the same as stepping into a vacuum). IIRC Ed did not have much to do with Karsus’ Folly – the way it turned out in published Realmslore was one designer’s (who apparently didn’t even consult Ed when he was writing the Netheril Boxed Set) perspective on how it happened. As for ToT, I don’t recall the Weave being destroyed during that event – do you? Yes, the decay of the Weave reflected quite dramatically in the Realms, but the Weave *existed*. Now, wait a minute… funny you should mention Karsus’ Folly, because I can’t recall any sort of Spellplague taking place during Netheril’s Fall… which should have logically happened from the 4E perspective, since Mystryl died (which should also destroyed the Weave, right?). As I already said, I can’t recall the Spellplague happening during ToT, either. And yet, if those ‘Countdown…’-articles (and Rich’s replies) are to be believed, the Spellplague was triggered by the Death of the Goddess of Magic (Mystra) and the subsequent collapse of the Weave. Uh… talk about consistency there.
First of all, as I already noted above, I don’t have any professional ambitions about my beloved hobby. Neither am I seeking any “fame” or fortune by trying desperately publish my stuff on the Internet. So, no, I haven’t offered my stuff to any RPG publisher and nor do I want to put it on the Internet. It’s enough that me and my players can occasionally get together and have a good time. And I truly doubt that Ed's "Fluff Bible" is a very good example of any -- he probably wrote it just for fun, and it's a "bonus" for the Design Team. Do you REALLY believe that all freelance novel writers are going to read it through? Just like Mark Anthony read the Waterdeep Boxed Set when he wrote 'Escape from Undermountain' (in which we see an evil Durnan and his band of cutthroats, plus those nasty dungeons of Waterdeep in which innocent are tortured... *sigh*)? Or when Brian Thomsen (IIRC) wrote the 'Once around the Realms'? In which he even couldn't spell two very important letters -- AO (he constantly referred to a commonly-worshipped "overgod" called EO).
Let me say it again: I’m *not* claiming to be more “qualified” as a writer, or a “better” DM, than any WoTC designer. Note that even those professional game designers are just *normal people* first and foremost -- they may have better “routine” in running and planning encounters and writing articles, modules and accessories, but do they still *enjoy* the game the same way as you do? I know film directors (not personally, of course) who can’t just enjoy a movie like you and I do –- they’re constantly focusing on how every film has been directed (e.g. which kind of stunts there are, which kind of visual effects, what could he had done better, what sort of professional “tricks” he could steal from it, and so on). The same goes for composers, musicians, authors, etc. -– in fact, it’s the same in almost any other “creative” profession ; you just don’t enjoy your “work” the same way you did when it was a hobby. Therefore, I would dare to guess that most professional adventure designers cannot take a look at an article, adventure or rule book without analyzing how it’s written, how the encounters are planned, what’s the basic premise, etc. And in the end it affects how they DM and write their campaigns, too. For example, imagine yourself writing (and running) brief encounters, day after day, just to test every critter in the new Monster Manual or certain new rules –- can you honestly claim it wouldn’t kill off some of the passion for D&D and therefore affect your own “home” campaigns?
Let’s get back to “feel” and “spirit” and knowledge of the details. I’m amazed how much blind faith you have in people who may be professional game designers but have very little (or even no) experience with the Realms at all. Unless they have actually read the FR novels and accessories, how *could* they have any sense of FR “spirit” or “feel”? It just isn’t enough that you quickly pour through the latest supplements and memorize some places and names. Yes, they may be professionals, but unlike you, I don’t think that professional designers are necessarily or automatically better DMs or authors than your average “Joe DM”. Compare this to a FR DM (who hadn’t ever read a single Eberron book) writing or running an adventure set in Eberron -- how would it feel to “hard core” Eberron fans? They would probably point out how the author/DM has forgotten faction X in Xen’Drik, or NPC Y of House Z. And, most likely, he forgot that people in Kingdom W *only* wear purple and how the priests of deity Q should *not* be LE. Therefore, if I did an adventure set in Sharn (“Hey, isn’t that like a seaside metropolis with griffons and flying carpets and so on -– like Eberron’s Waterdeep or something?”), for example, it would probably feel like a FR module with some Eberron places but definitely the NPC names would sound more “Realmsian”. In fact, I’m fairly sure that the end result would be a pretty “bland” mixture of Generic/FR feel, because I just don’t know enough about Eberron to use those details in the story.
So, isn’t it quite valid to note that almost *any* Eberron DM is more “qualified” to write and run Eberron stuff than I? Or more “qualified” than even the Grandmaster of all DMs, Ed Greenwood? Therefore, isn’t it just fair to note that if I and Keith Baker were to write an article or adventure set in FR, Keith would probably pull it off a lot quicker due to his professional routine, but I’m quite certain that my stuff would *feel* more Realmsian (due to those details) . If we were to run a 3E FR Campaign, I’m quite confident that I could put it together quicker than he could (and again, it would probably feel more like a FR campaign than his). But if we are talking about Eberron stuff, I have no illusions about my abilities –- anyone with even marginal knowledge about Eberron would do a better job than I. Note that we are not talking about *quality* of the *content* here (Keith Baker –- along with Chris Perkins and Ed Greenwood -- is, IMO, probably the best designer and writer ever to work at WoTC). So I would never claim to be a better DM or better adventure-designer than Keith –- far from it!
We are, however, talking about “feel” and “spirit”, and to elaborate this even further with a concrete example: Robert Jordan has, for years, been one of my favourite authors, whose ‘Wheel of Time’-series is a true masterpiece in fantasy fiction. No matter how much I love his ‘Wheel of Time’-novels, I have never really liked his take on Howard’s ‘Conan’-stories –- they just lack something in “spirit” and “feel” that Howard's stories have (and Jordan also apparently misinterpreted/ignored some details and yet some of them even contradict Howard's own text). Neither do I think that one of my other favourite authors, Ed Greenwood, could write a ‘Wheel of Time’-story that would compare to Jordan’s work –- in fact, I’m sure it would feel like a FR story set in a completely different environment.
). Everything's possible, like in every superhero comic book series. The monasteries and temples and whatever structure dedicated to beings who were formerly gods and now have become demi-powers at best will just become ruins, or have been strangely affected by the return of the crazy world of Abeir into Toril. And in 100 years, some structures just get abandoned anyway. Also, it has been said that Gnomes will be detailed in the Forgotten Realms-Campaign book as a player character-race, so please, just stop with them.
