FR Podcast is up

[The Little Raven]

completely forgotten

The "forgotten folk" being forgotten is as ironic as it is appropriate.

 

[hong]

If you were referring to being "qualified" in the sense of formal *education*, I can pretty much say that I'm *perfectly* qualified to write anything (since I haven't heard of any TT RPG Designer courses anywhere).

... you just choose not to.

 

[DandD]

Stargate? Oh, you mean portals -- you *do* know that you can't just "dial" any address with them? There's a difference. And there *are* Creator Races native to Toril, you know (humans being one of them, in fact). I very much doubt that Gnome settlements will be even mentioned in FRCG (or any other 4E FR book, for that matter), but it *would* be better if they vanished into the Feywild, for example, than if they're just retconned or completely forgotten/ignored.

I'm pretty sure that you know that other human races on the other hand come from other dimensions/planes/however that is called in Forgotten-Realmian, like those Mulhorandi.
Bam, Stargate all over the face!
And you seem to not know what fate attends the gnomes in the 4th edition Forgotten Realms, so you should stop complaining about their fate, if nobody really knows what will happen to them.

One of my current "Realmsdoom Scenarios" involves the biggest Orc Horde ever to muster (due to good, old-fashioned intrigue) -- nothing magical about it, unless you count the (not-too-many) magical items and spellcasters they have. And there are a lot of things which set the Realms apart from your "run-of-the-mill" fantasy worlds (apparently more than I imagined, if we take a look at the scope of things 4E FR will have).

But Orc Hordes are lame and won't destroy the world, and get defeated by high-level heroes easily, unless the Orc Hordes got backup by demons and devils or uber-evil wizards of doom and destruction, which in this case, it's magical once again. Although, the Orc Hordes will need uber-magic anyway, least they get swayed away by your standart-high level wizard, be they NPC or PC, so magic is always involved, and the primary factor.

At least I'm passionate about the Realms, and I wish to post my opinions whenever I perceive something which is (in my subjective opinion, of course) either a misconception or misinformation. Since you've admitted that you are not very serious about the Realms, let me ask you, in turn: why are *you* "wasting" your time here, if you're not into FR?

Because I'm playing there anyway thanks to our Gamemaster, so I get to know stuff about that setting automatically. I just don't care about it at all if the homelands of my character get stomped by giant mountains from another world or dragon-like humanoids with boobs slaughter his descendants in the fourth edition. Stuff happens. It's 100 years later then. By then, he's dead. Fortunately, I didn't play an elf (because D&D-elves suck).

 

[Primal]

So, the only difference is that people are willing to exchange hard currency for his writing and give him creative control over long-standing intellectual properties, and none (to my knowledge) have demonstrated a willingness to do the same for you?

You're right, that's the only difference.

The problem is that it's a hugely important difference.

That was not the point -- you might be the best adventure-writer or DM in the whole world, but unless you *want* to be a "professional" game designer and apply for a job, or post your stuff on the Internet, nobody outside your own gamer buddies will know of it. And before anyone comments on it, no, I don't consider myself to be a great adventure-writer or DM (I can do a decent job, but hardly anything above an "average" Joe DM). But I personally know a DM who could (if he only wanted to) probably land a job as a game designer in any D20 company he wanted to. Not only does he write the best adventures I've ever seen anywhere (and I read a lot of RPG stuff), but he also draws beautiful and exciting maps *AND* is the best DM I've played under. Yet he has no aspirations as a game designer, because he sees RPGs as a form of entertainment and also the best way to relieve stress -- he does not want to make it a job and a *source* of stress. If you ask me, the only differences he has with James Wyatt is that IMO he writes better stuff than even James, *AND* he has not published his stuff anywhere (and does not want to). In my eyes he's more "professional" than James.

 

[Primal]

... you just choose not to.

But I do. I write a lot of stuff for my own games -- it just isn't published anywhere.

 

[Hussar]

Well, it appears that FR Gnomes are retconned into "Core" (MM) Forest Gnomes, so I doubt that kingdoms like Oelerhode or villages like Hardbuckler will appear in 4E Realmslore. Most likely they will be conveniently "forgotten".

Or, it could easily be that in the ensuing century, both places have been ground into the dust and destroyed because a kingdom of gnomes would have the staying power of a snowball on a hotplate when the chips REALLY come down. Never minding, of course, that small states in RL got regularly destroyed and forgotten about all the time.

I'm a "Gray Box" guy myself, which is *exactly* why I'm so livid and upset about these changes. I've never felt the Realms, Elminster, the other Chosen or Mystra being too complicated to run. I've pretty much ignored most of the changes that have taken place in FR novels, because the RSEs have been happening so rapidly that I've lost count years ago. Sadly, the Shadow Weave will still be around, whether you like it or not.

Yes, but, that's just you. Do you seriously suggest that the Realms should be written for you, a twenty year veteran and compulsive collector, or me, a casual collector? Which direction would sell more books do you think?

Well, I didn't like ToT, either -- they killed three of my favourite (as a DM evil deities and introduced a new "God-of-ALL-Evil" (Cyric) in their stead. Yet the scope of the changes and the shift in the timeline were pretty mild in comparison -- it's almost as if (after hearing about one of Ed's potential "Realmsdoom" scenarios -- the "Spellstorm") they said: "Hey! Let's do Time of Troubles on steroids! We can explain away everything with it, because, well, it's magic! More than that, actually -- it's a frickin' *STORM* of magic! A PLAGUE OF MAGIC! ". *Sigh*. :\

Why not? We can create ENTIRE PLANES of existence with magic. We've done so in all sorts of various D&D supplements. Why can't a magical disease wreak havoc on a setting? Heck, look at Scarred Lands. There's a setting where your Spell Plague has physical embodiment in the forms of the Titans. And, guess what? A mindless plague that randomly affects various things, but leaves others relatively untouched is actually fairly believable.

Well, Volo's Guides would be a good idea for a 4E FR product line, but I doubt that they'll do anything like that, since the whole idea of these "New Realms" were to cut down the level of detail in the setting (unless they want to do another 'Sellplague' for 5E or 6E). Frankly, I don't really care, since my group will keep playing 3E/Pathfinder RPG, and therefore I'm not going to buy any 4E FR stuff.

If you think that we won't see a raft of world building wankery for FR in the next couple of years, both filling the pages of Dragon and hardcover books, I've got a bridge to sell you.

The idea was to cut down on the level of detail that prevents people from starting play. That means that you don't reference fifteen year old supplements that are out of print. That was the problem of FR - like the Volo's Guides for example. Fantastic supplements. A really fun read. Out of print for at least a decade. What is the point of referencing a book that your audience will likely never have heard of, let alone see?

 

[PeterWeller]

Feel free to do so, but first read the final pages in the 'Grand History of the Realms' and also what Rich has revealed about 4E FR in the 'Ask the FR designers'-thread (on the WoTC forums). All of the things I've mentioned are "official" changes verified by Rich or some other WoTC designer.

There can be a whole lot of changes that, in the end, don't really amount to much at all, especially when you're dealing with a pantheon of over a hundred figures. A dozen or so gods getting aced may seem like a lot, but you still have another hundred hanging around.

Rich's comment seems to indicate that this is the case.

It hasn't? Could you tell me which 4E FR accessory has all that level of detail we've had ever since the Grey Boxed Set came out? Wow... the lore of tens of thousands of pages stuffed into FRCG, perhaps? If not, it has changed, hasn't it? Because it's not as if Waterdeep or Suzail are the same as in 3E.

So your contention is that a new setting book needs to update every single little factoid about the Realms that has ever been published? Well, in that case...

Of course, you're ignoring the fact that much of that lore is already five, ten or even twenty years out of date, and a lot of it is also essentially time-neutral. Waterdeep and Suzail aren't the same as they were in 3E, yes, but they're very, very similar. You can take a lot of your street level fluff and port it over with little more than changing a first name here and there. People are still going to own bars with secret basements and entrances to Undermountain in Waterdeep, and nobles are still going to plot against the crown in Suzail. The people engaging in these activities in 4E are most likely going to be the descendants of those who did so in 3E.

Um, I think it was a guy called...wait... Rich Baker? Yeah, that was the name. He said (on those pretty vague and probably unreliable WoTC forums) that FR gnomes will be retconned into "Core" 4E Gnomes in the 4E Monster Manual.

You're right. They're going to look a little different.

As for the Cosmology changes... you heard that the Spellplague will change the FR Cosmology to match the Core Cosmology? And as the Weave has been the "upholder of all life" on Toril (and all beings have been connected to the Weave), its collapse affects the Cosmology (and the Deities, although not on the level the Spellplague appears to do). I never actually liked the Shadow Weave or the Shade -- in fact, neither of them have *ever* appeared in my campaigns (they do exist, but in the background, waiting for the day if a PC is interested enough to mess with them).

That the weave is the upholder of all life on Toril isn't actually canon. It's not even supported by Realms canon. How does Eliminister survive without the weave when he travels to Oerth to visit Mordenkainen or Krynn to visit Dalamar? If the weave was necessary for life to exist on Toril, why didn't we see mass extinctions during Karsus' Folly and The Time of Troubles? Why don't you drop dead the instant you step within a region of Dead Magic?

I never claimed that I'm more "qualified" than the 4E FR designers (lest of all Ed, Brian or Rich) -- however, *some* of them apparently have very little experience with FR and its "spirit" or "feel" (IIRC *nobody* has been running FR campaign at WoTC for years). And what's even worse, those designers have apparently not done their "homework" (i.e. poured through all the FR books). That's the only reason I can come up with why some explanations have "holes" you could fly the Spelljammer through. So I can claim that some of the designers haven't done their homework.

Your assuming your knowledge of the Realms is so complete that anything you perceive as a mistake by the development team must be a mistake. You have seen an incomplete picture and assumed that the incompleteness is due to a lack of "homework." You go on to insinuate that you're at least as qualified as the designers. Are you so vain as to actually believe this?

Really, it's no different from me being hired into the 4E Eberron Design Team -- I have absolutely no great passions about Eberron one way or the other, and I haven't read a single Eberron book ever. Would that make me a "true professional" in your eyes? Now, if I started writing 4E Eberron stuff, you'd expect me to know all possible Eberron tidbits so that my stuff wouldn't contradict anything published in 3E books, right? And, I'm probably just as "experienced" as a DM as most of the guys working at WoTC. The only "real" difference between me and, say, James Wyatt, is that his work has been published, while mine has not (and you cannot claim that my stuff would be inferior in comparison as you haven't actually played in my campaigns or seen my stuff, right?). If you were referring to being "qualified" in the sense of formal *education*, I can pretty much say that I'm *perfectly* qualified to write anything (since I haven't heard of any TT RPG Designer courses anywhere).

You're right, I can't judge the quality of your work, but I have to ask, if it's so good, why have you not tried to publish it, and if you have, why hasn't someone published it? The ball is in your court as to the quality of your work. If you're not willing to afford me the opportunity to judge it, I have every right to assume that's because it's not as good as the work of those who do afford me that opportunity.

I find it especially amusing that you say you're as experienced a DM as people who play D&D for a living. You may very well be a very experienced DM, I think most of us here on ENWorld are, but I very much doubt you play or DM in three games a day, five days a week.

You may be very knowledgeable about FR canon, you may be a talented writer, and you may be an experienced dungeon master, but you haven't the access to material that the professionals have (Ed's 100+ page fluff bible for 4E Waterdeep, for instance), you haven't the experience playing and running games the professionals have, and someone hasn't take the risk to invest in publishing your writing as they have with the professional developers. Note that this risk has also been rewarded.

 

[Primal]

So it's a good thing they're removing Unther, Mulhorand, and Chessenta? I think it's brilliant.

That depends on whether you've used them or not. A whole Dragonborn Empire whisked by magic out of another plane, because they couldn't come up (or didn't bother with) with a plausible explanation how to "tweak" the 3E Dragonborn (logically implemented into the Realms in 'Dragons of Faerun') to fit the new "mold" -- you'd call that brilliant? I call it laziness.

I agree. I also think it's pretty smart.

Well, that depends on how they succeed in selling the "New Realms" into new customers -- "FR haters" and non-gamers alike. My personal RL experience (discussing the changes with a bunch of FR fans -- both players and DMs alike) is that most of the current "old guard" is not so keen on the changes and may skip 4E FR altogether. I also get the same kind of "vibe" after reading any FR threads here, at Candlekeep and the WoTC forums. Of course, only time will tell how succesfull 4E FR will actually be (and I *am* well aware that "Internet savvy" fans do not represent the whole customer or fan base). My gut feeling is that it won't sell nearly as much as they expect it to. It's a calculated risk (which they have publicly acknowledged) which may turn out to be the stupidest thing they've done.

Wait, Elminster's gone? The farmers are gone? Merchants? Ancient secrets and hidden threats?

The current level of details will be gone, the Pantheon mutilated into a collection of interracial deities with "angelic"/hero deity servants who churches (and worshippers) have mysteriously vanished into thin air (even in the areas *not* ravaged by the Spellplague). Almost all of the NPCs (who include a lot of merchants and farmers, indeed) I've created are dead. As in "toss out the 300+ pages of NPCs you've written".The same with all the wizards, priests, villains, etc. In fact, all of the stuff I've written needs "tweaking" -- even "fluff". Just because D&D and FR are going through *both* mechanical and thematical changes, which saldy *does* affect the spirit and feel of the setting. So FR is going to become more "Points-of-Lightish" (to use Rich Baker's expression)? That affects local customs, rituals, economy, and so on. And we don't even know if there will be any farmers in the Western Heartlands, for example -- certainly there won't be in Turmish or Chessenta, hey?

As for Elminster, no he won't be gone, but apparently he can't cast any magic and the designers have forgotten that the Divine Essence of Mystra within him should still work just fine (unless *ALL* the gods are rendered as powerless as Elminster in 4E FR -- not likely, right?). And that Divine Essence -- plus Spellfire and Psionics -- should let him accomplish him, well, pretty much anything now that he's no longer bound by Mystra's will.

 

[hong]

But I do. I write a lot of stuff for my own games -- it just isn't published anywhere.

IOW... you write lots of stuff, you just choose not to publish it?

 

[Primal]

IOW... you write lots of stuff, you just choose not to publish it?

And why should I publish it? I don't have any ambitions in that field, and I prefer keeping RPGs as a hobby, not a profession. Neither do I want to desperately seek recognition and fame by posting my stuff on the Internet. Nothing wrong in that either.