FR Podcast is up

[Green Knight]

We don't know the number, and it's probably going to be a case of demotion over expulsion or death, in which case their religions are still going to be important and pertinent.

Demigods/Exarchs aren't going to have religions. They're going to be like saints in the faiths of Lesser and Greater Powers. Deneir, Nobanion, etc no longer have churches or followers.

 

[FabioMilitoPagliara]

Well, after listening to the Podcast, I found myself thinking "Hmm...I may actually give the new Realms a look."

And this is from a guy who gave up on them ages ago. There are parts I like, and parts I hate. I loved the original grey box, but just about everything since has been kinda downhill (although the elves and dwarves no longer being in decline is kinda cool).

snip

this

I am in the same position

 

[Mirtek]

Demigods/Exarchs aren't going to have religions. They're going to be like saints in the faiths of Lesser and Greater Powers. Deneir, Nobanion, etc no longer have churches or followers.

Don't think so. I think it just comes down to making them less powerfull uber-monster (level 25+ encounters) instead of the more powerfull uber-monsters (level 30+ encounters) that are the real deities.

Even demoted to exarchs they most likely still have their followers and churches even if these now ackknowlegde their superior too.

 

[Primal]

The realms was originally called the Forgotten Realms because the fair people of this little rock that we live on have forgotten the realms, excepting in myth. We were connected at one time through portals. This was Ed's original idea. Mr. Greenwood sold the rights to his creation and other authors have shaped the realms with their artistic ability since that time.

The Realms are no longer Mr. Greenwood's creation. Of course he doesn't like the changes, they aren't his changes. Does this make the changes bad? I have no idea, I will know come August.

If you are a staunch Greenwood supporter, I would think the fact that the previously unknown regions are his creation would have you shouting "Thank Ao!" Play in those regions. Mr. Greenwood is very creative, so these regions should be awesome. I'm excited, but then again I'm an optimist.

I am feeling good about the 4e book due to the fact that it appears we won't be getting a text book this time.

Space

I know where the name comes from (I've been a very committed FR fan for almost twenty years now, after all). Actually, down the years, Ed has apparently liked (and publicly admitted doing so) a lot of stuff done by several esteemed FR "lorelords", such as Steven Schend, George Krashos, Brian R. James, Eric Boyd, et al. (all of who, in my opinion, have done as brilliant job as Ed). Ed himself has written (and contributed to) quite a lot of FR novels and accessories. So you could say that 2E/3E FR still has had a lot of Ed's "handprints" all over them.

4E FR seems to be the first edition of the Realms -- based on what we've seen so far -- that I have absolutely no interest in (and neither do any of the 30+ FR fans I know in RL). Maybe it's because the "spirit" and "feel" of the Realms is no longer the same? I doubt that even Ed by writing the 4E FR books all by himself could salvage much of this train wreck I perceive 4E FR to be. Therefore, I doubt that I'm going to run anything anywhere in 4E FR. I have plenty of 3E material left (enough to sustain my campaigns for ten years or so), and I think I'm going to use Pathfinder RPG for my Realms campaigns (we're starting a playtesting campaign soon) in the future.

Oh, by the way, AO is no longer part of 4E "canon" Realmslore -- he was apparently too "uber" and too-high-level for PCs to kill (so he'd have made them feel insignificant). That's why he was simply eliminated from the Realms.

 

[Green Knight]

Don't think so. I think it just comes down to making them less powerfull uber-monster (level 25+ encounters) instead of the more powerfull uber-monsters (level 30+ encounters) that are the real deities.

Even demoted to exarchs they most likely still have their followers and churches even if these now ackknowlegde their superior too.

From this link.

The deity-status thing is a handy shortcut for nailing down a god's place in the world. Here's how I see it working:

Greater God: You've got a worldwide church, clerics, and worshippers. You're powerful enough to generate an astral dominion (outer plane) of your own, and it generally takes on the characteristics you want; you are ruler over a celestial court. Not all greater gods choose to make their own planes--sometimes a couple of greater gods share a plane. Tyr is a good example.

Lesser God: You've got a church, clerics, and worshippers. You don't have your own plane, so you affiliate yourself with a greater god and have a substantial realm, palace, tiki bar, or whatever within that greater god's plane that you call your own. You're part of that greater god's celestial court, although you may be a loyal ally, a treacherous wild card, or a recluse who avoids contact with the "landlord." Someone like Beshaba is a good example. She's not important/strong enough to have a domain of her own, but she has clerics and temples and such.

Demigod: You don't have clerics or worshippers, but you're immortal and you are known to the mortals of the world as a mythological figure. You serve lesser gods or greater gods as a champion, herald, lady-in-waiting, or whatever. Clangeddin is a good example--he's really the most legendary dwarf hero, and serves as Moradin's two-fisted fightin' champion when Moradin wants someone's keister kicked. The Red Knight hangs with Tempus. And so on.

We think there are about 15-20 greater gods, a like number of lesser gods, and the rest of the figures in the pantheon are probably demigods. Siamorphe looks a lot better as someone else's lady in waiting than as a deity in her own right--or so we think, anyway.

 

[Primal]

Wait a minute, didn't all these changes already happen with that Times of Troubles-sillyness already? All Assassins died back then, gods died in the dozens, new nations arised, the changes from a totally hog-wash medieval fantasy world to a even more hog-wash renaissance world, floating islands, tons of portals and all that stuff... Also, in 3rd edition, Faerun never was part of the Great Wheel anymore, it was ret-coned to be always these crystal-sphere-thingies in the official campaign book.

Of course, the Forgotten Realms always were hog-wash, and trying to make all these things stick to canon makes it like Star Trek. As soon as there is some change, or something doesn't stick to canon, it's the ultimate terror, and the sky is falling. I'd rather have new iterations, like Transformers: Animated retelling the Transformers saga, but this time even better.

Of course, those are your subjective opinion -- not facts (please remember to use phrases like "in my opinion" or "I think" etc.). As for ToT, gods didn't die "in the dozens" (assassins died by the thousands -- you got that right), and I can't recall any new nations arising. Floating mountains? Isn't that one of those 4E "mote" things? If you are referring to the enclaves of Netheril, that was one man's version of an ancient "High Magic" kingdom (sloppily designed and *not* how Ed envisioned Netheril to be).

Continuity and consistency are important to any setting -- If I did the 4E Eberron CG and erased/modified some of the "iconic" stuff there (such as that Mournlands were never formed and Sharn fell last year and is now a ruined city or the Rakhasas are actually Dragonborn Exarchs), don't you think I would be lynched by the Eberron hard-core fans? Evolution is one thing, change for change's sake another, right?

 

[Green Knight]

Oh, by the way, AO is no longer part of 4E "canon" Realmslore -- he was apparently too "uber" and too-high-level for PCs to kill (so he'd have made them feel insignificant). That's why he was simply eliminated from the Realms.

Here's Rich Baker's post on why they're not mentioning Ao (Not mentioning isn't the same as getting rid of him. He's still around, but just not being talked about).

 

[Shemeska]

Open your 3E FR book to page 256 and read about the cosmology of the Realms.

4e FR appears to be retconning its cosmology a second time:

1e/2e Great Wheel cosmology
3e Great Tree cosmology, lots of retconning of planar elements and associated FR history
4e Great Tree retconned to seemingly have the structure of the 4e PoL cosmology (from what I've seen)

Edit: FWIW I started FR in 3e, and I played and enjoyed it. I just never used its IMO wonky cosmology. With what I've seen of 4e FR, it looks like it may have lost me, which is unfortunate, because I rather liked the setting. But the elements I liked most are dismantled or unrecognizable now, and pretty much every non-immortal NPC and tons of plot hooks vanished with the time leap.

 

[Mirtek]

From this link.

Well, it seems a little bit self-contradictory.

"but you're immortal and you are known to the mortals of the world as a mythological figure."
-> people use to worship someone for being much less than a recognized immortal champion of deity XY

So even while the worshippers of the Red Knight might openly admit her being in servitude to Tempus, she should still have no problem to get worshippers who call themself servant of the Red Knight first and servant of Tempus second.

 

[Green Knight]

Well, it seems a little bit self-contradictory.

"but you're immortal and you are known to the mortals of the world as a mythological figure."
-> people use to worship someone for being much less than a recognized immortal champion of deity XY

So even while the worshippers of the Red Knight might openly admit her being in servitude to Tempus, she should still have no problem to get worshippers who call themself servant of the Red Knight first and servant of Tempus second.

I don't see a contradiction. Rich Baker states unequivocally that they "don't have clerics or worshippers". They're figures within the religion, but that doesn't mean they're worshipped. The same is true of numerous realworld religions, in which you have important figures of the faith who are themselves not worshipped. When a designer flat out states "they're not worshipped", their not being worshipped ought to be fairly self evident.