FR Podcast is up

[jensun]

Move from the Renaissance theme for FR to more of a modern high fantasy feel

I keep seeing this and have no idea where its coming from. I have played in and bought FR material since 1e and have yet to see anything I would describe as Renaissance outside of Waterdeep. It has always felt like a high fantasy world (just go back and read Greenwoods first realms books) with a bunch of pseudo real world cultures jammed in around the edges.

 

[The Little Raven]

4e FR appears to be retconning its cosmology a second time

Retcon means "retroactive continuity," which means "it has always been this way, older books be damned."

That's not how the new cosmology happened. It changed because of the Year of Blue Fire.

 

[The Little Raven]

Evolution is one thing, change for change's sake another, right?

Just because you don't like it or won't accept the reasons for change as being valid doesn't mean it's "change for change's sake."

 

[Primal]

An important tidibit from that very post about the FR gods:



Dying in droves, eh?

Well, all the deities of magic (Mystra, Azuth, Velsharoon and Savras) and Cyric are either dead or banished to the Astral Sea. Tyr killing Helm (his long-standing ally) and Torm apparently "stealing" both of their portfolios. Elven deities have been revealed to be mere "aspects" of the human deities (e.g. Sehanine has always been just Selune "in disguise"). Dwarven deities Haela, Gorm, Laduguer and Deep Duerra all dead. And the Pantheon being "trimmed down" to 20 or so "real" Deities with the rest of the gods being reduced to their servants ('Exarchs') without any worshippers or churches (e.g. Clanggedin, an Intermediate Power, becoming Moradin's 'Exarch'). Not any significant changes to the Pantheon, right?

Can you articulate what the "spirit" and "feel" are in your opinion? In my opinion, the "spirit" and "feel" of the Realms is its nature as a big old grab bag of fantasy tropes where you can find a place for anything in D&D. That certainly hasn't changed, even though the Goddess of Magic is dead and Chessenta is no more.

To me the "spirit" or the "feel" of the Realms is that it feels like a living, thriving world filled with interesting people (NPCs) who all have their own stories -- whether they be "movers and shakers", humble farmers, greedy merchants, other adventurers, black-hearted villains, The Chosen of Mystra, and so on. It is a setting that has unknown lands and villains, ancient secrets and hidden threats, but also "homely" villages and familiar faces. To me, the Realms are defined by its detailed history, people and lands, that all offer endless possibilities to tell and experience stories. In 4E, most of those people are gone and the world shattered almost beyond recognition. It will take another twenty years to get the same level of detail I have now, so why bother, if it is important to me and my players?

EDIT: Oh, another thing: They are not ret-conning the FR cosmology! They have already said that they are providing an in-story explanation for why the cosmology changes. If it is explained with a story that is a new part of continuity, it isn't retroactive continuity. You can't just go around using the term "ret-con" for every change you don't like.

I am well aware of what the term implies. So let's talk about Shadow Weave, for example -- it was Rich's idea for 3E FR, and it was "retconned" as having always been part of the Weave . Then, as the news about the Spellplague started to trickle in, some posters pointed out that Shadow Weave -- as part of the Weave and dependent of its fate -- would also collapse. Suddenly, Rich Baker announced that they're going to retcon it again, so that Shadow Weave can exist outside the Weave. All the gnomes in FR? Retconned to become 4E Gnomes and most likely their kingdoms and villages have never existed, either (I wish to point out that the designers used the term "retcon" themselves). And to be frank, I doubt that they've actually gone through all the historical events in the FR timeline to ensure that the introduction of Abeir (and it being the "source" of all aberrations in FR) is not contradicting some previously written major event or detail.

 

[DandD]

They don't retcon it. They let a hundred years pass, and say that crazy stuff happened that made the world of the Forgotten Realms be so now. In your words, evolution instead of change for the sake of change. Exactly as you rather wanted it to happen, instead of being always so.

Now, the development might not be liked by you (and I frankly don't really care what happens to the lame-o-Forgotten Realms in any iteration, as I already knew the Forgotten Realms light, the "continent" of Aventuria/Arcania in The Dark Eye, and believe me, the germans are far more anal-retentive about simulationism), and that's valid.

 

[Primal]

I refuse. I mean, seriously, this are the internets, of course everything is opinion or thinking about. Fortunately for me, my opinions happen to coincide with the facts...

Really? Then, at least, get your facts right (starting with names).

I really don't know how many died, as there are still some hundred million gods for anything in the Forgotten Realms. I know that Bane got better, and that Baal-dude died, thanks to the Baldur's Gate-games, and appearently that Mystra-chick, and some cave-god that got eaten by that Shar-hussy, and the former evil death god, and some more who got beaten to a bloody pulp by that Cyric-guy with a god-slaying sword, who got around and killed some more lesser gods and so. And there were also some elven gods who killed some dwarven gods, if that Marvel Comic about the lame Forgotten Realms is true, and some adventurers went around and killed some more gods, and other non-human gods killed or got killed other non-human gods, and so on...

Um, are you sure that you're thinking about the Hindu Pantheon? Because I can't recall the Realms having even 200 Deities at any point in time. And Baal is a RW deity, while Bhaal is the former deity of death and murder you referred to. You know what? We had less 'deicides' during ToT than the Spellplague.

So what? It was 3rd edition already. And as others have pointed out, what that Ed-dude says is moot. At best, he's now a co-designers for the Forgotten Realms, since the day he sold his intellectual property to other guys. Meh, Eberron only makes sense for D&D 3rd edition, as it's the only campaign setting where they intelligently applied most of the magic rules to a world, unlike the crudely stitched Forgotten Realms. The Forgotten Realms just are more the effort to be redone than Eberron, because people played Baldur's Gate and perhaps also Icewind Dale enough to become D&D-pen-and-paper-players. All that Eberron has to show is the lame-o-game D&D Online. It's all about name-recognition and brands.
That's why they said that 100 years pass, so people like you should feel happy, because it "evolved" to the new face it gets (hur hur hur hur ). That spellplague stupidness is as idiotic as the Times of Troubles, and it changes the setting to accomodate the rules better. And it's so that the new demographic still see, hey, that's the world where that Baldur's Gate-city is located, that's cool, I can now play in that world too with my ranger-barbarian who's got a miniature giant pet hamster from space, and all that other whacky shenanigans.

Actually, for most FR fans what Ed says is not "moot" -- he may have sold the commercial rights of the Realms to TSR, but he has written a lot of FR novels and sourcebooks since then, so "what that Ed-dude says" has actually became "canon" (as in "official") quite often. And Ed's contract with TSR has a clause which reverts the copyright back to him if WoTC doesn't publish any FR products anymore. By the way, CRPGs (Icewind Dale, Baldur's Gate and so on) are not part of FR "canon", but some of the events were later "canonized" by the designers in novels and accessories. Indeed, it seems that 4E FR is targeting a whole new consumer base who does not have access to 1E/2E FR accessories. Whether it will success or not, only time will tell, but I'm personally quite pessimistic about it.

 

[Primal]

They don't retcon it. They let a hundred years pass, and say that crazy stuff happened that made the world of the Forgotten Realms be so now. In your words, evolution instead of change for the sake of change. Exactly as you rather wanted it to happen, instead of being always so.

Now, the development might not be liked by you (and I frankly don't really care what happens to the lame-o-Forgotten Realms in any iteration, as I already knew the Forgotten Realms light, the "continent" of Aventuria/Arcania in The Dark Eye, and believe me, the germans are far more anal-retentive about simulationism), and that's valid.

So the designers saying "I think we're going to retcon this and that" is not, in fact, retconning? Amazing. And if the "in-story" explanation given to all the changes is going to be "well, that's what happened during the 100 years of Chaos -- and it was all caused by the Spellplague", I can assure you that my cat could come up with a better explanation. And tell me how is the "Armageddon-like" magical world-wide catastrophe "evolution" in any way? I would call it a "cheap trick that we're using 'cuz we don't want to spend too much time pondering over individual changes"-type of tactic.

Let me mention another inconsistency I've spotted: the Spellplague apparently is not "powerful" enough to break High/Epic Magic wards (i.e. Mythals and Mythal-like magics), *but* it's able to shuffle around the planes (destroying the planes ruled by demipowers, lesser powers and intermediate powers -- not to mention "tossing" Abyss to the bottom of the Elemental Chaos). Wow, I guess those gods should have invested in Elven High Magic instead of Salient Divine Abilities...

 

[Primal]

Just because you don't like it or won't accept the reasons for change as being valid doesn't mean it's "change for change's sake."

Would you call the Spellplague natural evolution? I don't. What we are seeing in 4E FR is a conscious design direction to break down the world to its basic elements, so that it can be rebuilt to fit a new model and a new customer base. Therefore, I think it's change for change's sake.

 

[Primal]

I keep seeing this and have no idea where its coming from. I have played in and bought FR material since 1e and have yet to see anything I would describe as Renaissance outside of Waterdeep. It has always felt like a high fantasy world (just go back and read Greenwoods first realms books) with a bunch of pseudo real world cultures jammed in around the edges.

Those "pseudo-real RW cultures" were not Ed's idea. Nor does his "Home Realms" have them. They were added to FR by various TSR designers.

 

[DandD]

Really? Then, at least, get your facts right (starting with names).

I think the fact that I'm using dude and guy and chick and other appendages to the FR-gods is proof that I really don't care about their names.

Um, are you sure that you're thinking about the Hindu Pantheon? Because I can't recall the Realms having even 200 Deities at any point in time. And Baal is a RW deity, while Bhaal is the former deity of death and murder you referred to. You know what? We had less 'deicides' during ToT than the Spellplague.

Nope, I'm sure I'm thinking about the Forgotten Realms-game-pantheon. I think it's obvious that I clearly exagerate and don't like it at all, but I also think it's obvious that me putting out that there are 1 trilliion gods simply means that there are too many gods, most of non-important stature. And there have been many god-slayings, and there are still too many gods around.

Actually, for most FR fans what Ed says is not "moot"

You don't even know if it's most. Most fans could actually like all the other stuff that wasn't written by Ed Wood, but or because of the things that his co-designers applied to the Forgotten Realms. Or, shock and horror, because of Drizzt Do'Urden (that Drow dude with the double scimitars and that panther-thingie), who lives on this world.

-- he may have sold the commercial rights of the Realms to TSR, but he has written a lot of FR novels and sourcebooks since then, so "what that Ed-dude says" has actually became "canon" (as in "official") quite often. And Ed's contract with TSR has a clause which reverts the copyright back to him if WoTC doesn't publish any FR products anymore.

And what the other dudes have written are considered canon as well.

By the way, CRPGs (Icewind Dale, Baldur's Gate and so on) are not part of FR "canon", but some of the events were later "canonized" by the designers in novels and accessories. Indeed, it seems that 4E FR is targeting a whole new consumer base who does not have access to 1E/2E FR accessories. Whether it will success or not, only time will tell, but I'm personally quite pessimistic about it.

See, you say "canonized".

One thing is, Wizards of the Coast wants the Forgotten Realms to be a big playground that Game Masters can do whatever they want with it, without being constrained by the novels, which is why WotC is trying to communicate better with the novel writers and planning stuff accordingly.

Now, that might not function at all, and the results may still become garbage, but at least, they tried.