Blacksad
Explorer
NemesisPress said:
The team that produced godlike has released all of the open content as a pdf on their website, that might interest you:
http://www.godlikerpg.com/pdf/GodlikeOpenSource.pdf
Free D20 Supers!
- Thread starter Detwiller
- Start date
The team that produced godlike has released all of the open content as a pdf on their website, that might interest you:
http://www.godlikerpg.com/pdf/GodlikeOpenSource.pdf
Oh, I agree wholeheartedly,
"And, as a matter of fact, one of those products that isn't very polished in appearance, but seems to be stellar in design is Vigilance, a d20 supers game available from RPGNow.com right now. A good game available now for $5 is better than a free game (of as yet undetermined quality or interest) that I can't get! "
Vigilance is a great game! I have no quarrels with them –– I think it's people trying to pump out stuff solely for profit that are the problem, and who've caused distributors to sadly dump a lot of third tier publishers ––good right along with the bad. A glutted market is no good for anyone, least of all those producing quality games. People like the folks behind Vigilance should be commended. It's obvious they care about what they're doing.
And yes, as the poster above indicated, our OGL document for GODLIKE, along with the original GODLIKE rules are available for free download on our site, so no need to blow $40 on a book you don't like ;>)
-Dennis
www.godlikerpg.com
"And, as a matter of fact, one of those products that isn't very polished in appearance, but seems to be stellar in design is Vigilance, a d20 supers game available from RPGNow.com right now. A good game available now for $5 is better than a free game (of as yet undetermined quality or interest) that I can't get! "
Vigilance is a great game! I have no quarrels with them –– I think it's people trying to pump out stuff solely for profit that are the problem, and who've caused distributors to sadly dump a lot of third tier publishers ––good right along with the bad. A glutted market is no good for anyone, least of all those producing quality games. People like the folks behind Vigilance should be commended. It's obvious they care about what they're doing.
And yes, as the poster above indicated, our OGL document for GODLIKE, along with the original GODLIKE rules are available for free download on our site, so no need to blow $40 on a book you don't like ;>)
-Dennis
www.godlikerpg.com
trancejeremy
Adventurer
You can also download the revised rules for the Foundation for free. They're really not bad, either.
Psychotic Dreamer
First Post
Personally I'm looking forward to Natural 20's The Ultimate Superhero Kit (or whatever they changed the name too), I really liked the preview of it. It looks like it will be able to lay on top of any D20 game, which is what I'm looking for. Most the other ones coming out are going to have classes of their own and what not. Just rambling. No point here other than my opinion. 
Nikchick
Explorer
Re: Woah!
Bwah!! Dennis, you're not having an off day, you're one of the most delightfully cynical people I know.
Still, I think Green Ronin is doing slightly better than vanity press, and with all due respect to Mike Mearls, Steve Kenson (the man responsible for our for-money D20 Supers game) has been working steadily (if without fanfare) in the game industry for several years, is quite an expert on superheroes and has been very highly rated for his d20 work. I'm pretty confident that our d20 superhero offering is going to be neither "shoddy" nor "crud" nor "chaff."
I understand that you (at least in your association with Pagan) had a long-standing reputation for producing books for the love of the art rather than to make a living, but I would hope that you would respect the rest of us who have decided to try to make a living wage selling our books rather than running us down or waltzing in with lots of macho talk about 'thinning the herd.' That kind of Bill Hicks-ian Rant in E Minor kind of thing isn't going to play well here.
Nicole
Detwiller said:
Bwah!! Dennis, you're not having an off day, you're one of the most delightfully cynical people I know.
Still, I think Green Ronin is doing slightly better than vanity press, and with all due respect to Mike Mearls, Steve Kenson (the man responsible for our for-money D20 Supers game) has been working steadily (if without fanfare) in the game industry for several years, is quite an expert on superheroes and has been very highly rated for his d20 work. I'm pretty confident that our d20 superhero offering is going to be neither "shoddy" nor "crud" nor "chaff."
I understand that you (at least in your association with Pagan) had a long-standing reputation for producing books for the love of the art rather than to make a living, but I would hope that you would respect the rest of us who have decided to try to make a living wage selling our books rather than running us down or waltzing in with lots of macho talk about 'thinning the herd.' That kind of Bill Hicks-ian Rant in E Minor kind of thing isn't going to play well here.
Nicole
Cergorach
The Laughing One
No offense Nicole, but i have to agree with Dennis Detwiller. Although his expression might not be the best, a publisher is supposed to follow a certain ettiquette i'm led to believe, but he was honest about his opinions, i can respect that.
I think he is right, the D20 market is extremely polluted, it's impossible to track what's out there and what's worthwile. I wouldn't mind it one bit, both as a consumer and a retailer when the D20 bubble bursts. I don't really mind it if there's some variety, but dozens of books on prestige classes makes the market opaque, as a result the consumer loses fate in the market as a whole.
Take for example the AEG general D20 line (not the Rokugan line, which is superb!), although each book has some redeeming factors (some more than others), the whole series seems poorly developed and could really have been something, if more time was spent on it, instead of churning out a book a month. Mongoose is even worse (sorry guys), i have everything upto and including the Quessential Fighter, and it all sits there on the shelf (not completely true, i like the golem book), unused. I do have to say that every book has some potential, but again it needed more development instead of churning out half a dozen books a month. I do understand that others do not agree with my opinions, but there are many more that do agree with me and hopefully we will be heard...
Maybe i expect to much from D20 publishers, but WotC sets the standard IMHO, if publishers can't compete (with content quality, not presentation) they shouldn't be publishing. I've seen many good products by many different publishers, the whole WW crew (affiliates such as Necromancer Games, S&S, Malhakov, Arthous, etc.), FFG, AEG (Rokugan), and a lot of others. Why can they produce quality material and others cannot? Taste? Could be, we will see. But there will come a time when the consumer will say enough is enough and the entire D20 market will suffer for it...
ps. If you felt left out, it's very difficult to get GR material around here, the main distributor (ps-games) doesn't carry it. I've only seen the Demon and the Devils book, and i like!
I think he is right, the D20 market is extremely polluted, it's impossible to track what's out there and what's worthwile. I wouldn't mind it one bit, both as a consumer and a retailer when the D20 bubble bursts. I don't really mind it if there's some variety, but dozens of books on prestige classes makes the market opaque, as a result the consumer loses fate in the market as a whole.
Take for example the AEG general D20 line (not the Rokugan line, which is superb!), although each book has some redeeming factors (some more than others), the whole series seems poorly developed and could really have been something, if more time was spent on it, instead of churning out a book a month. Mongoose is even worse (sorry guys), i have everything upto and including the Quessential Fighter, and it all sits there on the shelf (not completely true, i like the golem book), unused. I do have to say that every book has some potential, but again it needed more development instead of churning out half a dozen books a month. I do understand that others do not agree with my opinions, but there are many more that do agree with me and hopefully we will be heard...
Maybe i expect to much from D20 publishers, but WotC sets the standard IMHO, if publishers can't compete (with content quality, not presentation) they shouldn't be publishing. I've seen many good products by many different publishers, the whole WW crew (affiliates such as Necromancer Games, S&S, Malhakov, Arthous, etc.), FFG, AEG (Rokugan), and a lot of others. Why can they produce quality material and others cannot? Taste? Could be, we will see. But there will come a time when the consumer will say enough is enough and the entire D20 market will suffer for it...
ps. If you felt left out, it's very difficult to get GR material around here, the main distributor (ps-games) doesn't carry it. I've only seen the Demon and the Devils book, and i like!
Hey Nik...
"I understand that you (at least in your association with Pagan) had a long-standing reputation for producing books for the love of the art rather than to make a living, but I would hope that you would respect the rest of us who have decided to try to make a living wage selling our books rather than running us down or waltzing in with lots of macho talk about 'thinning the herd.' That kind of Bill Hicks-ian Rant in E Minor kind of thing isn't going to play well here."
I don't know Nik, it seems to be pretty commonplace in internet message boards, doubly so on gaming sites. In either case, I didn't mean to imply you shouldn't go ahead with a D20 Supers game, only that those doing so should attempt to reach a level of quality not yet evident in D20 supers (M&M excluded, because I haven't seen it). But so far, the D20 supers stuff (barring some of the 'near free' stuff like Vigilance which was neat) has been straight up dreck.
Having everybody with access to a keyboard publish something D20 is not good for the industry in any respect, most especially for a company like Green Ronin. No one involved in Open Sourcing D20 ever imagined the license could jump around and bite them in the ass, but it has, and the backlash is not good for those actually producing decent product (such as yourselves).
The thinning of the herd has already begun, and when sales diminish even more it will continue, when Distributors take the next step and cut out middle of the road companies altogether.
Whatever you think, things are not going well in the house of D20 (you, of all people should know that
) The quicker things stabilize towards a "real" industry the better, because Diamond ain't doing too good either, and if they go, that's all she wrote.
-Dennis
"I understand that you (at least in your association with Pagan) had a long-standing reputation for producing books for the love of the art rather than to make a living, but I would hope that you would respect the rest of us who have decided to try to make a living wage selling our books rather than running us down or waltzing in with lots of macho talk about 'thinning the herd.' That kind of Bill Hicks-ian Rant in E Minor kind of thing isn't going to play well here."
I don't know Nik, it seems to be pretty commonplace in internet message boards, doubly so on gaming sites. In either case, I didn't mean to imply you shouldn't go ahead with a D20 Supers game, only that those doing so should attempt to reach a level of quality not yet evident in D20 supers (M&M excluded, because I haven't seen it). But so far, the D20 supers stuff (barring some of the 'near free' stuff like Vigilance which was neat) has been straight up dreck.
Having everybody with access to a keyboard publish something D20 is not good for the industry in any respect, most especially for a company like Green Ronin. No one involved in Open Sourcing D20 ever imagined the license could jump around and bite them in the ass, but it has, and the backlash is not good for those actually producing decent product (such as yourselves).
The thinning of the herd has already begun, and when sales diminish even more it will continue, when Distributors take the next step and cut out middle of the road companies altogether.
Whatever you think, things are not going well in the house of D20 (you, of all people should know that
) The quicker things stabilize towards a "real" industry the better, because Diamond ain't doing too good either, and if they go, that's all she wrote.-Dennis
Nikchick
Explorer
Cergorach said:
No offense taken at all. In fact, Dennis and I are quite like minded on many issues. We've both been around the industry long enough to be cynical and both have the "tell it like it is" personality trait.
Oh, I'm not arguing that at all. I just don't think it's another publisher's place to come strolling in with a baseball bat threatening to club the other companies he perceives to be below the acceptable threshold of quality, which is very much how Dennis's comments came off.
Thanks for letting me know that! I don't want to come across as egotistical, but I think Green Ronin's products stack up against any other publisher in the business, D20-related or not. We made a huge leap of faith by buying into D20 right off the bat and helping prove the success of the platform, and I feel that we've published material that is of comparable quality to all the publishers you have mentioned, so it does get me down a little when we seem to be left off people's lists. We've tried to be consistent with our releases, we've attempted to minimize the redundancies that you referred to in your post by working *with* other publishers (such as publishing large swaths of entirely open content, or collaborative efforts such as those initiated under our OGL Interlink effort), we've been careful to maintain a steady release schedule without flooding the market with too many releases in a month, etc.
I have exactly the same concerns about the long-term health of the marketplace that others have already expressed, and I do think as a company Green Ronin is acting in as responsible a manner as we possibly can. We announced our intention to do a d20 supers game last December. We have steadily continued to work on it, to make sure that it's a rules-solid, fun, well-presented game; we could have decided to rush it out and beat everyone else to market, but I steadfastly refuse to fall into that trap as I feel it's seriously detrimental to the market to do so. When I read comments that include phrases like "money grab" and "band wagon" I guess I do feel the need to remind folks of what we have and haven't done.
Regards,
Nicole
Cergorach
The Laughing One
Nikchick said:
Who's place is it then? The consumer? A consumer is only a consumer until he starts doing something about the situation himself (publishing something that is good, free, and available to all). Btw, please check for a pulse after the clubbing, they might be faking it ;-)
The reason i left you off my initial list is simple, i don't own any of GRs products (i wish i did but i currently don't have the resources to order directly out of the US), and i was comparing the products i have lying on my book shelf.
One of the really frustrating parts is that due to the aggressive publishing schemes of companies like Mongoose (i am looking forward to Slaine and possibly Judge Dredd) and AEG (rokugan rocks!) it becomes rather difficult to get products from 'smaller' companies through the distibutor. They couldn't possibly carry all the D20 stuff out there (even Diamond doesn't carry it all), they have to make choices and will go for the most popular. Sadly the most popular is often due to the fact that there's the most of it and the only of it available. Thus repeating the vicious circle...
If you feel offended, don't be, GR is one of those companies that make pretty good products (as far as i've seen) IMHO. I think you'll survive the bursted bubble. Other companies will not (and rightly so), some will have to adjust their marketing views (Mongoose will find a nice with their Judge Dredd and Slaine products, AEG will have Rokugan).
How long has M&M been in development? Kinda curious...
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