Free healing with Life Transference

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Personally, as a DM I'm quite fond of powers that allow the party to "suppliment" characters who are running low on surges (in my group, the Palladin's lay on hands and the Cleric's cure light wounds... which he never uses). It seems that when the party has to call an extended rest its because one player (usually the melee ranger, but sometimes the wizard) has run out of surges while the rest still have plenty. Its nice for the party to have a mechanic that lets them push on without relegating one player to the sidelines. Besides, I find that adventuring days seem to be short enough as it is - rarely does the party make it to a second milestone - but then again, +3 encounters are the average as the party has no shortage of healing triggers, what with 2 leaders and a palladin (in a group of 5).

Rather, what healing I dislike is stuff like regeneration, which gives surgeless healing throughout an encounter, as it can make a particular encounter a cake walk where one really doesn't need to worry about running out of healing triggers.

So to me, I welcome more powers like healing transference and cure light/medium/whatever - doesn't mean I won't need to look at healing transference to check it for balance in my own campaign, however.

So I agree with Dracosuave that "surge transference" powers are not inherently broken - though I might feel different running a game for a party with more limited healing triggers.

 

[Rothe_]

In my opinion it is not bad to have powers that transfer healing surges from one character to another. It mitigates the problem of one character getting hit more than the others, or perhaps the fact that some classes have less surges.

It is a bad idea to have excessive amounts of powers that generate healing without spending any resources. Resources are basically daily powers and healing surges. Encounter powers are not really resources in any time span other than a single fight.

Life transference is bad because it is an encounter power, and thus it can be used dozens of times per day with short rests. If it spent a healing surge, or was a daily, it would be ok. It would heal, but with a real cost.

 

[Thanee]

After reading Rothe_'s last post, I have a house rule idea for those of you, who dislike the power as is (even when you restrict its use to allies only).

Just change the effect as follows:

The cleric does not take any damage.
The cleric loses one healing surge instead (and obviously heals twice the cleric's healing surge value to the target).

Otherwise, as is, even with self-targeting allowed, I guess.

Bye
Thanee

 

[karossii]

One simple solution would be to change the target line from one creature to one ally. Thus the cleric could not use this on himself; and only in limited situations (coincidences of chance, or more likely munchkin players who would find a way to exploit the rules anyhow) would it not cost the cleric in healing surges.

Even with a means to gain regeneration each 'encounter' (as the short rests become), I think most encounter regeneration powers such as longtooth shifting only work up to bloodied value, thus it does not remove all resource cost from the healing.

At least since it doesn't use a healing surge, it can't be further enhanced by pacifist healing; though there are ways to enhance it...
Student of Artifice + Potent Restorables (2 feat cost) adds +2 up to +7 (level dependent) to all healing powers.
Healer's Implement (1 feat cost) adds the enhancement bonus of your implement (+1 to +6) to cleric healing powers.
Healer's Brooch (neck slot) adds its enhancement bonus (+1 to +6) to your healing powers.
Compassionate Healer's (paragon path) 11th level feature 'Compassionate Blessing' allows you to suffer an extra 5 points of damage to restore 2d6 extra hit points (and is worded so that it could still be self applied, if Life Transference can be self applied - risking 5 to gain an average of 7 not a bad risk)

So, depending on how you consider the implement/brooch stacking (some argue since you are using the enhancement bonus of the item, the bonus IS an enhancement bonus and they can't stack; others argue if that were true, similar wording on dozens of weapons that allow you to add the enhancement bonus to attack or damage rolls would be pointless, thus they are untyped bonuses simply based on the enhancement bonus of the item (such as how other bonuses are based off of an ability score but do not become 'Charisma bonus' or 'Wisdom bonus'), and do stack); you are looking at healing up to twice your surge value, plus your wisdom modifier (Healer's Lore), plus 2d6 + (13 or 19), all for suffering your surge value plus 5.

Given the 26th level minimum for that (Potent Restorables / +6 items), you're looking at a surge value of (assuming CON 10 to start) 37, a wisdom (assuming 18 to start and all level bumps in wisdom) of 25 (+7).

So you suffer 42, heal an ally for 96 to 106 (or if you're stacking the two items, 108 to 118). Assuming you weren't bloodied to begin with, you do this a second time for another ally 5 minutes later. Then you're definitely bloodied (down at least 84 out of 149), and so you repeat this for yourself on the third 5 minute interval... of course you ultimately only gain from 54 to 76 (depending on the dice and stacking), since you hurt yourself again first... you're definitely not fully healed here. But you can now do it at least twice more before hitting unconscious; so one more ally then yourself again. You've now passed 25 minutes, and you are only down somewhere between 16 - 60 hit points (again, depending on the dice and stacking). You've also healed 3 allies for 96 to 118 HP each. An extra 5 minutes sees you nearly (or more than) fully healed as you repeat this on yourself one last time. So ultimately, 10 minutes per ally to heal them 107 (average) hit points with seemingly no resource cost!

Except time IS a resource too! What if you have to save the princess in only 2 hours? What if there are some goons chasing the party, and if you stop for more than 5 minutes, they catch you and combat starts? What if you're in a hostile environment that saps your power (hit point damage, lost healing surges, cumulative other debilitating effects) the longer you remain there? What if the artifact you are hunting will be gone in 20 minutes, as the dragon decides that you are too powerful to face and flees with her precious?

Yes this can be very powerful, especially if a player builds the character to focus on healing. But is it at all game breaking? I don't think so! Just as certain attack powers (when similarly focused on) can seemingly alter the face of some (or most) combats; a nova ending said encounter in one or two rounds versus 6 or 7... thus negating a similar (or greater) amount of damage the party migt have suffered . . . with seemingly no resource cost!

It might force the DM to become more creative, to take into consideration his player's powers when designing adventures for them... BUT ISN'T HE SUPPOSED TO BE DOING THAT FROM THE VERY START?

 

[Rothe_]

Time is a resource in some cases, in some cases it is so plentiful that it does not matter. Obviously there can be scenarios where the power is not so powerful, even as written in DP now, but that does not rule out those other situations.

Also, it affects the resources of the whole party with just a single level 2 encounter power. It is just excessive. Additionally, some other powers may be broken too (referring to the above post) but it is no excuse to print other overpowered things.
You should evaluate things one by one and see if they are reasonable for the baseline of power efficiency for that level.

 

[Nifft]

The more I think about it, the more it seems like the best answer is to just charge the Cleric a healing surge (instead of dealing damage to him). That makes it effectively a supercharged Lay On Hands, which is not generally regarded as broken -- and Clerics have a more limited number of surges than Paladins.

Just change the effect as follows:

The cleric does not take any damage.
The cleric loses one healing surge instead (and obviously heals twice the cleric's healing surge value to the target).

Otherwise, as is, even with self-targeting allowed, I guess.

Great minds, etc.

Cheers, -- N

 

[karossii]

Time is a resource in some cases, in some cases it is so plentiful that it does not matter. Obviously there can be scenarios where the power is not so powerful, even as written in DP now, but that does not rule out those other situations.

This is true of all of the game's resources. Sometimes the party has a relatively good idea that there will be only a single encounter in a given day; they easily can blow their daily powers and healing surges with reckless abandon. They could be mistaken, and get in trouble for doing so; but the same can be said of time as a resource. Sometimes the party might (with DM allowance, of course) encounter a cache of consumables (potions, etc.) and be able to easily blow through more than usual for a few encounters. Or they may be awarded excessive gold. Perhaps only to find (in either/both cases) that the resources will be balanced by a lack of new treasure for a while...

Ultimately, the resource handling is 100% up to the DM, as it should be. If you, as a DM, cannot handle this... find a new DM.

Also, it affects the resources of the whole party with just a single level 2 encounter power. It is just excessive. Additionally, some other powers may be broken too (referring to the above post) but it is no excuse to print other overpowered things.
You should evaluate things one by one and see if they are reasonable for the baseline of power efficiency for that level.

With this I can tend to agree more than your previous statement; but this single 2nd level encounter power doesn't (or shouldn't, with proper DMing) have the massive impact you seem to fear. It is very strong, a good power - but so are some lower level attack powers (that are not, in and of themselves, "broken"). Heck, one of the best powers of the game for massive and reliable DPR is a 1st level at will (twin strike) when a character is built right. Another is (yet again, another 1st level at will) magic missile.

With proper 'optimizing' virtually any aspect of the game can see(and often actually become) 'broken'. But this healing is not - it is perhaps a bit too powerful for 2nd level, but not ridiculously so... it might should bea 6th level utility; but not paragon or higher... and an easy fix that we may see in an update is to change the target line to allies, and/or remove the damage and charge the cleric one healing surge instead. But even as it is, it is not game breaking.

 

[Nifft]

My claim is that some groups would like to have this option available. That's not the same, or even -close to the same- has houseruling away the spending of surges outside of combat.

I think there is no such thing as a group who plays with free & unlimited healing, and I've asked you to provide some evidence of one, twice now.

That's what I meant by 'tone-breaking' as opposed to 'game-breaking.' A manner of aesthetics. Which isn't relevant to a discussion on whether a mechanic is broken or not.

You did not correctly read what I wrote. Here it is again:

Life Transference is broken. Bad design, period. Full stop.

Next paragraph: Cure Light Wounds is aesthetically displeasing to me.

Those are different things.

Which grey area is this exactly? I've always -known- you could Healing Word outside of an encounter, then rest, and repeat.

Your cheese here is limited by the number of healing surges you have.

You tell the players they have so-and-so many minutes to complete the adventure, the players then spend those minutes on encounters and rests as they see fit.

You seriously run all your adventures that way? And you expect all groups to play a similarly rigid way? That's rather limiting -- and I'd find it annoying to track every single minute of time.

That's the sort of challenge I use in moderation.

It -is- clear tho. You're just choosing to allow personal aesthetics get in the way of a clear understanding of how the rules work.

This is what I get for showing you a big word like "aesthetics", huh?

You have two hours to save the princess before the big bad uses his evil ritual to destroy the world. Extended rest at your own risk.

That's exactly why extended rests are so distinct from short rests. Clear difference = good design.

All [free surges outside of combat] does is remove the need for that resource -for one single aspect- of the game, while retaining it for other, more dramatic aspects. (...) It only removes the challenge in campaigns designed around that specific challenge.

Bull. One doesn't need to design a campaign around healing surges for them to matter.

Prove this, then. Prove that it breaks the game. You've proven that it breaks your sense of aesthetics, and I admit that is a strong possibility for many games, and that -in those games- it isn't appropriate.

Oh jeez. One more time: my aesthetic argument was about a different power.

Proving Life Transference breaks the game: free, unlimited healing. Bang.

As an aside... you must hate the Artificer. Simply having him in the group means two free surges per day. That must make him the most powerful of the leaders without Transferance of Life.

Artificier seems fine so far.

-- N

 

[Thanee]

Great minds, etc.

Heh. Oops!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nifft]

Heh. Oops!

Bye
Thanee

At least we're pretty sure we agree on the fix.

Cheers, -- N