Free healing with Life Transference

[DracoSuave]

Were I a DM, I would Rule 0 (or the 4E equivalent) that, on the basis of RAI being you giving HP to someone else.

If they'd intended the power to work only on allies, it would target allies only, as many other powers of this type do.

You're reading in an intention to the power's design that might not exist. Targetting yourself might be an intentional use, in the same way Lay on Hands on self is an intentional use.

 

[Regicide]

After a certain length of that time, it is not trivial at all, and that's the point where you must compare this not to a short rest, but to an extended rest. Once you hit about 15 minutes or so, you've greatly increased the risk to the party of being attacked with your pants down.

I'd call foul on the DM if 15 minutes was critical. If that short amount of time does that, then where were the enemy when an extraordinarily loud battle that a perception of 5 could hear from a mile away? The next room waiting for the door to be opened or the party to rest? Bah. Very bad DMing.

A day is 288 times longer than a 5 minute rest. THAT is very often significant for plot, 15 minutes however, very rarely.

The -only- effect this power has in terms of resting at that point is giving you more encounters in a day.

Is more encounters in a day unbalancing? And if so, why? Does it increase XP/encounter? No. Does it make encounters trivial? No. Does it make fights go shorter than they should? No.

All it does is permit more encounters per day. That isn't necessarily a bad thing.

It is also out of line with other powers of the level and puts the "more encounters per day" in the hands of one class. So parties are required to have a cleric again?

Also the amount healed in one shot is also quite impressive.

 

[DracoSuave]

I'd call foul on the DM if 15 minutes was critical. If that short amount of time does that, then where were the enemy when an extraordinarily loud battle that a perception of 5 could hear from a mile away? The next room waiting for the door to be opened or the party to rest? Bah. Very bad DMing.

This is a false argument:

If they're next door, then they're on the same part of the encounter map. Chances are they're part of the same encounter.

In such an instance, five minutes is too long, and the party'd not have time for a short rest either.

If they aren't, however, five minutes isn't necessarily enough time to set up battle formation to repel intruders AND get to the scene of the crime. Fifteen is.

Are you honestly trying to say that the only possible divisions of time can be five minutes or six hours? No? Alright then. So there can be other divisions, like ten minutes, or fifteen. Maybe the party only has an hour to get to an objective. In that case, fifteen minutes is an eternity.

A day is 288 times longer than a 5 minute rest. THAT is very often significant for plot, 15 minutes however, very rarely.

See above example. Depends on the time needed. Not every adventure is a liesurely stroll through a cave populated by nothing more than the local fauna and flora, and the occasional mind flayer.

It is also out of line with other powers of the level and puts the "more encounters per day" in the hands of one class. So parties are required to have a cleric again?

No, actually, they aren't required to. Clerics have an advantage in this department, as do bards to a lesser degree, and artificers in a different way.

Also the amount healed in one shot is also quite impressive.

On that I agree, but it's a standard action; it had -better- be impressive or it's a waste of a turn.

 

[Mengu]

I'm applying the spirit of the bag of rats rule to this power. In this case, the caster is the bag of rats. You're basically attacking yourself for some damage (which is essentially meaningless since you can surgelessly remove it in another 5 minutes), and gaining a benefit that heals another party member. Not that much different than using encounter attack powers that provide healing outside of combat, on a rat (or a party member for that matter).

So as long as there isn't an immediate threat (i.e. you're in the middle of an encounter), you can't use this power.

I'm sure this isn't RAW, but I think bag of rats is more of something to be taken as spirit of the rule rather than letter of the rule.

 

[Regicide]

If they aren't, however, five minutes isn't necessarily enough time to set up battle formation to repel intruders AND get to the scene of the crime. Fifteen is.

Certainly absurd for a dungeon also completely silly for for practically any outdoor encounter that doesn't involve entire armies. Utterly ludicrous. Again, I call bad DMing.

I think to everyone but you it's pretty clear this is infinite healing, which is breaking the mould for powers and setting a strong precedent for making one or a set of leaders that have this ability vastly superior to ones that don't.

 

[Turtlejay]

I think to everyone but you it's pretty clear this is infinite healing, which is breaking the mould for powers and setting a strong precedent for making one or a set of leaders that have this ability vastly superior to ones that don't.

I think you misunderstand. This seems to be more about whether the power combo is appropirate to use as is. It is very easy to see that this can be infinite free healing, but the question is whether that is a problem.

Just because there is a disagreement someone is a bad DM? I'm not sure I follow, but this power is a pretty minor issue compared to some of the other reality bending stunts out there, and easliy countered or fixed by even a moderately creative DM (assuming you are one that feels it needs fixing).

Jay

 

[Thanee]

If they'd intended the power to work only on allies, it would target allies only, as many other powers of this type do.

You're reading in an intention to the power's design that might not exist. Targetting yourself might be an intentional use, in the same way Lay on Hands on self is an intentional use.

You surely must be kidding here... the power is called "Life Transference". That alone should make the intent clear.

Transfering your life force from one part of your body to another? C'mon...

Bye
Thanee

 

[DracoSuave]

You surely must be kidding here... the power is called "Life Transference". That alone should make the intent clear.

Transfering your life force from one part of your body to another? C'mon...

Bye
Thanee

You'd think. But the developers are very keen on the differences between ally-affecting and creature-affecting. Given that the default for leader tends to be 'ally-only' then one cannot rationally presume that they'd overlook that tendancy for a utility power.

Now, I know this may come as a shock, but D&D fourth edition IS the most playtested roleplaying game ever made.

I know. It doesn't seem it, but it is true.

This stuff gets playtested and developed for many many months.

The original design of the power might have been 'Use on ally' but the possibility exists that over the course of development, someone said 'Is it bad to use on yourself?' and after a bit of time playing it they said 'Actually, that's a pretty cool interraction.'

And thusly, the power stands as it is now.

I've also heard some people -still- claim that encounter powers used during short rests to heal isn't intended design despite the existance of feats that explicitly bolster powers used to heal during rests.


In the end, it is not safe to assume designer intent regarding this. It isn't RAI that it only affects allies, because the rules technology exists to make that happen, and has been used to that affect for every leader class in the game for powers at every level, in every source book. Seriously.

The case is that it isn't 'Rules As You'd Like It', or RAYLI, which I can certainly understand. Personally, I'd not mind if it said 'allys only' either. But the power IS cooler this way, so I can understand why they decided to go with this version.


The real question is if the power is a broken effect during combat: It's a standard action, costs you your attack, so it extends the length of the fight against the monster, so it'd had better be good healing for who receives it. So from that yard stick, it's doing what it should. It's a good power. Is it a -great- power? I dunno.

Does it prevent more damage than Sanctuary? Is it more helpful in a fight than Knight's Move or Moment of Escape? Swift Mender/Aid Other/Saving Throw Power of Choice here? Bonds of the Clan?

Hard to say, to be honest. The power does swing the battle a bit more to your favor... but if a power doesn't, then it's a wasted slot. But is that swing too great? Or does your now weakened condition make your more vulnerable?

And is having a free healing surge for yourself available in every combat worth that utility slot?

And lastly, is free healing outside combat, to bring you to full, really so broken it requires errata? Does it make the game unfun, and unplayable? Does it make encounters trivial?

I don't think it makes Cleric absolutely necessary by having this ability exist. If all my leader can bring to the table is 'I bring Moar Healing' then he's not as useful to the party as a leader who can heal us enough to win the encounter, but also can help us win that encounter faster, while keeping our more vulnerable members out of harms way.

A leader can heal away the injuries... a great leader can swing the battle so he doesn't have to as much.

Moar Healing doesn't do the latter aspect.

 

[Rothe_]

And lastly, is free healing outside combat, to bring you to full, really so broken it requires errata? Does it make the game unfun, and unplayable? Does it make encounters trivial?

I don't think it makes Cleric absolutely necessary by having this ability exist. If all my leader can bring to the table is 'I bring Moar Healing' then he's not as useful to the party as a leader who can heal us enough to win the encounter, but also can help us win that encounter faster, while keeping our more vulnerable members out of harms way.

For me it makes the game less fun and less true to its original design ideas about healing.

Why should you in fact make any healing powers that heal large amounts without surges? I am ok with those that are meant to heal only a few points as a bonus when something else is the true effect, but this is just plain surgeless healing.

In combat this power is not broken, it is broken out of combat. It requires the DM to keep things going at a quick pace to make the players spend any resources at all for out of combat healing. Before this kind of powers were available, I was happy with how the adventures were going. The players could heal outside of combat and even get bonus hp from cleric powers, but each instance of healing would still spend a healing surge.

One solution to life transference might actually be to make it grant temporary hp instead of regular hp. That way you could make one group member into a real tank for a short time.

 

[Zinovia]

If they'd intended the power to work only on allies, it would target allies only, as many other powers of this type do.

You're reading in an intention to the power's design that might not exist. Targetting yourself might be an intentional use, in the same way Lay on Hands on self is an intentional use.

Given the name and flavor text of the power, I don't think disallowing its use on yourself is reading anything unintended into the power.

Life Transference - means transferring from one person to another. I don't see how you can transfer wounds from yourself to yourself.

Bruises and lacerations appear on your body as they vanish from your patient. - The intent of the flavor text seems pretty clear. This seems to be an empath-like transference of wounds from the target to the caster. I realize the flavor text is not the final arbiter of how a power works, but it's often a good means of interpreting the intent, as in this case.

I would not allow this power to be used on the cleric casting it. It targets one ally. Certainly that's not how it's written, but in my opinion it better fits the designer's intent.

As for the out of combat cheesiness, I'd say it works, but I don't like it. Time pressure is one way of handling it certainly. If I were going to house rule the combo to prevent such usage, I might add a rider to Life Transference to say: "The transferred damage cannot be healed through the use of regenerative abilities." Transferring your buddy's wounds onto yourself does not invoke your bestial rage, and Melora tells you "You did that to yourself, so you're on your own". It's not an elegant solution, but at least you'd have to spend surges to get those hit points back.