Free Will and Choices

[diaglo]

The time they put into characters, from direct observation, is at MOST 2 hours a week, more often less than one hour. The most time they put in is when they level, and that event only happens every 5 to 6 weeks or so.

then let me just say your players suck. i put hours into my character in and out of session. and i know my fellow players do the same.

 

[Umbran]

I have to disagree here, based on personal experience. WITHOUT FAIL, the amount of time I put in as a player vs. the time put in as a DM is at least Four to One, if not higher.

I'm not sure that really matters, though.

The players don't owe you anything for time you spend doing something you find fun. Prep time should be catagorized as "time spent on a hobby I enjoy" rather than "work". If you find it laborious, you may well be on the wrong side of the screen. If you don't find it laborious, then you haven't lost anything if they don't use it, you still had fun at the time you prepped.

In addition, the players don't owe the GM for their miscalculations. If the GM prepares something the players really and honestly don't like, they aren't obligated to suffer through it. If a movie-maker or author creates a work I don't like, I'm not obligated to slog through it just because they did the work. The player is there to be entertained, not to do homage to the GM.

 

[DMScott]

Hmm, not quite sure what the basic question is. Let me approach this from a metagame level: I'm a member of a group of people who get together regularly to play D&D and have fun. When I DM, I have fun by running adventures during which my players have fun. So I talk to them and find out what their characters want to do, and we all figure out how the group will have fun. Then I create/buy/adapt/etc. adventures that reflect that.

So, I could say that the PCs have complete free will, and be telling the truth. But a good 75% of the adventures and other preparation I do ends up getting used, so from that point of view it seems there's a lot of "cooperative railroading" going on, by joint agreement between me and my players, otherwise their choices wouldn't so often coincide with my preparations.

In the end, from either the DM's perspective or the player's... I don't care if it's free will or railroading, so long as the group has fun. And the flip side is also true - if a group isn't having fun, whatever you're doing is wrong, even if it's right for some other group. There is no generally correct answer.

 

[tzor]

I give my players plenty of free will, even when I am railroading them.

Well "railroading" is a strong term. I don't railroad in as much as I have some NPC drive hard bargans. For example, the party recovered some odd artifacts from a tomb in the middle of the sewers (most people would wonder why a tomb was in the middle of the sewer ... not the players of course) when they were given mickys in their celebratory drinks and the items stolen from them. (Now that was a part of an old 1E module ... not *my* railroading. ) Anyway they recovered one of the items, but were being attacked by another group for no apparent reason.

They finally found an NPC who was willing to help them negotiate with exceptionally nasty evil clerics for the atrifact in their posession, in return for them going back into the sewer to recover the other artifact that wound up into vile hands and which turned people into monsters over time.

One example of "free will" was when they found a tomb of an anchient overlord in the middle of these catecombs. There were several chests with locks on them. (That's what happens when the DM says, "you see several locked chests," and then realizes that they wouldn't know a chest was locked unless of course there was a large external lock that was obvious.) There was also the anchient body of the overlord as well. The overlord mummy would have attacked anyone who dared to disturb his treasure, but the barbarian said, "We shouldn't rob the dead, let's move on." They grumbled but they left the mummy in peace.

 

[jasamcarl]

The only thing that matters is if there is a direct correlation between "amount of work" and "resultant fun" for that particular group. Whether there is a correlation any other group is entirely irrelevant. So yeah, it does matter for some groups - and if the players are having fun in such a group, then they do "owe" (to use your words) the DM something, IMO. Different groups, different dynamics.

I give a big "ditto", for my campaign. Umbran's response is a good description on how my game works.

Ok, lets make this simple. What do they owe? In the context of this discussion, their obligation has generally been characterized as playing out the plot line the dm has prepared. If they find that to be fun, they will play it out, so thats not an issue. Now what if they don't, or what if they fail to 'compensate' the dm? Well in that case it obviously wasn't fun and there is no correleation between fun and prep. So what do they owe you?

My answer is that they owe you nothing because you choose to be a dm and if the prep is fun for you, you would be willing to do it without some bs notion of 'payment'. A game is essentially a barter of mutual gain without cost. Players have their preferences, free time, character concepts, etc. while a dm has his campaign world, encounters, npcs, etc. If everyone agrees, they exchange.

But to complain that one has put an exceedingly large amount of time into prep and then claim someone owes you something? Very childish...

 

[Nine Hands]

I like to give the illusion of free will

The group can go off and do what it wants, but eventually, if they ignore things enough, it will bite them in the butt.

I also have no problems with them just packing up and running off to do something else, I like the sponteneity of it all.

As an example, just last night the party was debating: should they finish thier tasks in Myth Drannor (attempting to secure the city from outside interference) or should they go off to rescue the soul of a former fallen comrade.

I of course had nothing really written for either adventure, the Myth Drannor stuff is pretty sparse but the rescue the comrade's soul was completely untouched by me. I don't even have an entry in my adventure log for that. But a few minutes taken while they discussed what to do and I had a reasonably good idea of what laid ahead.

In the end they stayed in Myth Drannor and got beaten down by a high level shade/shadow adept and some of his companions. Dead magic areas rock

 

[Arnwyn]

Ok, lets make this simple. What do they owe? In the context of this discussion, their obligation has generally been characterized as playing out the plot line the dm has prepared. If they find that to be fun, they will play it out, so thats not an issue. Now what if they don't, or what if they fail to 'compensate' the dm? Well in that case it obviously wasn't fun and there is no correleation between fun and prep. So what do they owe you?

I agree with you here, and I certainly regret using your word "owe", as you were the only one to use it (even takyris, who you originally responded to, didn't use that word, and upon reviewing his post I don't even see much of an implication, either).

Thinking about it, though, I would think that (in the context of this discussion) the players "owe" it to the DM to at least try out the scenario that he/she prepared (as opposed to just walking immediately away from the plot hooks or whatever the DM has presented). I don't think that's unreasonable. They won't know if it was or was not fun if they just walk away. The correlation between prep time and fun is still there (for this hypothetical group, of course!).

My answer is that they owe you nothing because you choose to be a dm and if the prep is fun for you, you would be willing to do it without some bs notion of 'payment'. A game is essentially a barter of mutual gain without cost. Players have their preferences, free time, character concepts, etc. while a dm has his campaign world, encounters, npcs, etc. If everyone agrees, they exchange.

Absolutely agree.

 

[Mallus]

My answer is that they owe you nothing because you choose to be a dm and if the prep is fun for you, you would be willing to do it without some bs notion of 'payment'. A game is essentially a barter of mutual gain without cost....snip...
But to complain that one has put an exceedingly large amount of time into prep and then claim someone owes you something? Very childish...

To play Devil's advocate for a moment, I don't think that's quite right. A game is also a social engagement, and hosting [running] a game could also be likened to hosting a party. Does the guest at a party have to bring a bottle of wine? Or wear a costume if the host has indicated its a costume party? Extending your argument, you could say that the host has a agreed to assume the costs of party and all a guest owes is to attend. But what about basic ettiquette? At some level, you have to agree that the host of the party [or DM of a campiagn] is putting a lot more effort into the affair than the guest/player. And while its neat to render social entanglements in sterile economic terms [I don't think I want to attend any social gathering that's a "barter of mutual gain without cost"], its also inherently false, IMHO, because it discounts a lot of other, relevent factors, such as the social codes that govern human interaction [also called manners].

Granted, a DM agrees to take on the work load of DM'ing. And does so [assumedly] because they enjoy it. But in what way does that relieve the players from taking into account the effort they put in? If a person cooks you dinner, you should offer them something in return, regardless of how much they enjoy cooking. Its simply polite...

In the end, its all a matter of communication and compromise. A DM shouldn't subject his players to the kind of adventures his players don't enjoy. And players shouldn't expect to be able to do anything they want in a DM's world, any more than they expect to do anything they want in the real world.

 

[jasamcarl]

I agree with you here, and I certainly regret using your word "owe", as you were the only one to use it (even takyris, who you originally responded to, didn't use that word, and upon reviewing his post I don't even see much of an implication, either).

Thinking about it, though, I would think that (in the context of this discussion) the players "owe" it to the DM to at least try out the scenario that he/she prepared (as opposed to just walking immediately away from the plot hooks or whatever the DM has presented). I don't think that's unreasonable. They won't know if it was or was not fun if they just walk away. The correlation between prep time and fun is still there (for this hypothetical group, of course!).

Absolutely agree.

He made a deal out of how much time he put in versus the players, which strongly implies that some deference or 'payment' should be made to him. Sorry you couldn't see it. I've heard that argument before and you are repeating a watered-down version of it now.

As to your point, I would say that if the players walked away, the dm probably did a crappy job of 'hooking' them or judging what their attitude was. In such a case, there will be little pay off of fun relative to the prep put in. If you had such finicky, strong-willed players and you wished to retain them, you should probably learn to improvise. If you really think that the players would love your scenario, you should do a better job of communicating enough of your intention that you suspect they find compelling.

 

[MojoGM]

This is an interesting thread, and has caused me to re-examine how much "free will" I allow my players.

I like to think I give enough, maybe I can give more. Will have to dwell on this further.

But, to me the most important thing is that players should not feel like they can just make decisions and expect the DM to run it "on the fly". I think players should have "free will", but should also give the DM a heads up on what they plan to do, so he can make the necessary preperations.

My players tend to let me know what actions they might do, so I can be ready. And they also tend to make the big decisions not take effect during that game session (for instance, planning to travel to another city) so it gives me a week or more to prep.