Free Will and Choices

[S'mon]

I don't believe in free will.

I am an auteur. Games are all about the DM. IMC the players are mere spectators as I unfold to them the wonderful game modules, guiding them through, easy, step by step.

In return I guarantee them a 99% chance of survival. Unfortunately, I cannot account for that last 1%.

As the DM, I consider myself the 'father' of my group. I believe in strict discipline and hard work. I will punish 'hotshot' players that interfer with my storytelling. Usually by using recurring NPCs.

Me too! Me too!
All evidence of player free-spiritedness must be ruthlessly quashed, if the correct results are to be achieved. Player-characters who seek to deviate from scripted events must be immediately eliminated. In severe cases the player must be banned from the group before he can infect the other players with notions of 'choice' and 'self-determination'.

 

[diaglo]

Chugga-chugga-choo-choo!...I hate hate HATE modules like that. You can have so much more fun with traps than "Let's screw over the characters".

you don't want to run Banewarrens d20 by Monte Cook then. it is a total railroad fest. with multiple hooks/forced excuses to lead you back to the depot.

 

[jasper]

I give them limited free will. Here are some choices, check out the troll rumor, no name city, or why the sword shipment did not arrive from Slapout. When they did not bite thrice on sword shipment the city send a patrol. Well the city is buring 17 guys and the 3 survivors are now 3rd level.

 

[jasamcarl]

Hmmmmm.

I think I'm gonna make myself unpopular here.

As the DM, I either put a whole lotta work into creating a given adventure or shelled out my cash to buy it. I will do my best to come up with reasons for the characters to head in a given direction, and I create the tone of my game to be enjoyable for the players, but if they do just blithely trot off and ignore the hooks I laid out there because they metagamishly think it sounds like what they did last time, I'm gonna be annoyed.

This is not to say I force them into situations. It just means I'm gonna be annoyed.

I'm the one working on the game (or paying money) for the rest of the week. I'm the one putting time into it. So yeah, I get at least some say in what happens.

I doubt that I'm completely on the other side of the fence from the free will people, but I think that this "If I ever feel as though the DM wants me to go somewhere, then I'm not having fun" garbage sounds like stuff that people who have never DM'd come up with.

At the same time, blatant shoehorning is no fun for everyone. I don't want the players to think that I am against them. I want the PCs to think that the WORLD is against them sometimes, but I want the players to think that I'm busting my butt to give them a good time. And I ask for feedback to help things move along in a way that's happy for everybody.

Sometimes, free will happens after initial limitations. For example, my d20 Modern campaign started with players on a research ship in the Pacific. My requirement for the players was to come up with a character who would have a reason to be on that ship, and a reason to be enthusiastic and curious about unusual events.

We've got a few scientists, one loyal bodyguard who, while not curious, will faithfully follow orders given by the corporate liason (who is curious and enthusiastic about business opportunities regarding the unknown), and a mechanic with an eye for the paranormal. They all have free will now, provided that they play their character as they agreed. I don't intend to DM all-night conversations at the hotel lounge. I intend to DM something exciting.

If there is one line of thinking i disklike in these discussions, its the, "I'm the DM and I put in all the work." Its a catch 22 argument. As others on this thread have said, the amount of preperation a dm puts into a game is highly variable and does not always directly correlate with the game being fun. It's your choice to put that much work into the game; the players don't 'owe' the dm anything. If they are having fun, they will follow your path, if not, they won't. You should take that as a sign, not as something to dismiss.

 

[Arnwyn]

As others on this thread have said, the amount of preperation a dm puts into a game is highly variable and does not always directly correlate with the game being fun.

The only thing that matters is if there is a direct correlation between "amount of work" and "resultant fun" for that particular group. Whether there is a correlation any other group is entirely irrelevant. So yeah, it does matter for some groups - and if the players are having fun in such a group, then they do "owe" (to use your words) the DM something, IMO. Different groups, different dynamics.

The players/characters have free will. But then again, the universe doesn't revolve around them. The universe does what it will, and sometimes that isn't what the PCs want. Sometimes they will be stuck in situations where simply walking away is not an option if they wish to continue existing.

I give a big "ditto", for my campaign. Umbran's response is a good description on how my game works.

 

[Munin]

I'm going to go with the middle road in this discussion.

Ask yourself this...how much free will do you have? Really, think about it.
Sure, I could choose to not show up for work this morning, and subsequently loose my job and possibly house, car, toys, etc
So really, I have to work if I want to maintain my lifestyle. Not much free will there.

The players, at least in my campaign, face similar, though less mundane obligations. Sure, they can choose not to track down the evil wizard/cleric/demon, but do they want to deal with the wreckage he leaves behind if they don't?

Second, it's not my job to give make my adventurers adventure. Motivation is their job. This is not to say that I should not give them plot hooks that appeal to their motivations, but to say that they should have motivations that I can appeal to.

Third, there is only so much time in the week. I only have about four hours a week to prepare. I'm good at winging it, but I have to have an idea where they are going to make the game enjoyable.

So to sum it up, yes, they have free will...within the accepted confines of the game.

 

[iwatt]

Free will in games is a weird thing. As a player and a DM I've lived through all aspects of it.

As a player, our DM used to railroad us into adventures. This wasn't that bad until we reached Levels were we felt our characters should begin to have a political impact in the game (i.e name level in previous editions of the game). Then we'd get irritated whern we had no free will. Then we played some free will games, and nobody knew what to do . I once played a star wars game (before d20) wher the GM kept trying to turn my Bounty hunter into a a Force sensitive. This really pissed me off. But my current DM has my 12the level railroaded into different dungeon crawls, when he should be returning to Cormyr to aid after the War.

As a GM, I've tried to run free will adventures. I'm pretty good at winging things, but my WWII Modern camapign was getting out of hand. Each palyer had his own plot thread going on. We would play 4 hours, in which I was soloing evrybody for about 1 hour each. This was exhausting for me (i.e trying to bring together plot hooks plausibly so that players left out would get to play also, but without breaking the "free-will" injunction. Besides, coming up with czech names was getting progressively harder . Now I have them finally running away from the GEstapo (together) and have taken away a lot ofd their free will.

So to be honest, the Free will thing only worlds when players give the DM plot hooks and a lot of character development. But some player only want to play this weeks Dungeon Crawl, and try out thew cool new powers they've gained. So Now I ask my players if they want Free will before the Camapign begins.

No Free Will==>a higher level of dungeon crawls, with very cool monsters with templates. A very highly detailed tactiocal game

Free Will===> A huge world, with a lot of NPCs, a headache for me to continue coming up with original sounding names. There will bve inconsistencies, and I probably won't use Monster and BBEg to there max potential, because of lack of preparation. This will also recquire player leniency when I have to make rulings on the fly, that will probably change once I have more time to think about.

Everything is a compromise.

 

[frankthedm]

I don't believe in free will.

I am an auteur. Games are all about the DM. IMC the players are mere spectators as I unfold to them the wonderful game modules, guiding them through, easy, step by step.

In return I guarantee them a 99% chance of survival. Unfortunately, I cannot account for that last 1%.

As the DM, I consider myself the 'father' of my group. I believe in strict discipline and hard work. I will punish 'hotshot' players that interfer with my storytelling. Usually by using recurring NPCs.

I suupose you think D&D is a saturday morning cartoon? ... well technicly...

 

[Henry]

Consider a game going for months, deep into a very complex plot that the player have chosen and taken an active role in. You show up for session 37, and the PCs suddenly decide to walk away.

If you have a whole pack of NPCs and events that are planned to go off, and they still happen after the PCs walk away, or some of those NPCs come after the PCs... have you taken away the free will of the players to control where the game goes?

My gaming group, playing in my Forgotten Realms game currently, have finally come up with an appropriate name for their "adventuring company":

The company of the Endless Bridge. They can't finish a quest for the life of them.

Travel to Sembia to make money? Just as they get there they hear the news that Tilverton has vanished, decide to head West to Cormyr and render aid. They get to Tilverton, see a smoking grey dimensional rift, decide it's not for them, and head to Myth Drannor. They get as far as Shadowdale, decide they are too inexperienced, and head to the Moonsea, and the Zhentil Keep / Phlan region, to make their fortunes.

The gods only know what'll happen when they get there - if they don't decide to turn around and traverse Anauroch or The Great Glacier instead.

But simply put, events go on without them. I make sure they know it. In one plot, they could have rescued and befriended a Silver Dragon and its young; instead, they left the area, and I had a rival adventure band succeed. Soon, they will meet up with the rival band (which they know) that had gained the favor of a Silver Dragon.

They failed to uncover an assassin's reason for stalking a party member. The assassins will show up later, with a vengance, getting stronger each time until they succeed or are stopped.

Cormyr needs heroes right now, and all the name players (Khelben, Vangerdahast, Elminster, the Simbul) are out of commission. This will have repercussions later.

Keep the world moving, and no matter what the players choose, they will see that if they don't stick to a plan to its completion, they will suffer consequences later. It's not punishment, it's a lesson in cause and effect.

 

[Henry]

If there is one line of thinking i disklike in these discussions, its the, "I'm the DM and I put in all the work." Its a catch 22 argument. As others on this thread have said, the amount of preperation a dm puts into a game is highly variable and does not always directly correlate with the game being fun. It's your choice to put that much work into the game; the players don't 'owe' the dm anything. If they are having fun, they will follow your path, if not, they won't. You should take that as a sign, not as something to dismiss.

I have to disagree here, based on personal experience. WITHOUT FAIL, the amount of time I put in as a player vs. the time put in as a DM is at least Four to One, if not higher. I may spend anywhere from 4 to 6 hours over the course of a week (at the computer, while showering, while driving, etc.) coming up with fresh ideas for my games, and the reward is directly paid off when I see my players hemming and hawwing, being challenged by a combat or a social conundrum, and putting their all into figuring out the best course of action.

There is usually a lot of work for most DM's in creating challenging scenarios and plot hooks; only a fraction of it is (for me, anyway) spent with stats; the rest is spent with maps, creating NPC personalities, etc.

The time they put into characters, from direct observation, is at MOST 2 hours a week, more often less than one hour. The most time they put in is when they level, and that event only happens every 5 to 6 weeks or so.