Free Will and Choices

I suppose my campaign would be the equivalent of putting an off-road vehicle on the train tracks. I've got a big old plotline going beyond 20th level, in which the villains have their own agenda - one which involves the PCs - but if the PCs choose to drive off the tracks, well, go them. If they don't bite an adventure hook, they wait until something horrible comes to the door (a good reason to give them powerful patrons with a tendency of mission-giving, actually). If they screw up, they screw up. If they beat a massively powerful villain they shouldn't have a show of defeating (which they almost did at one point - fortunately, the villain was able to use powerful magic to stop the fight), well then, that villain's dead and I've got to figure something else out. If they want to go to Budapest, heck, give me a map of the city and there you go, but the invasion's still assembling over the border.

But fortunately for me, my formidable psychic prowess has subverted the will of my players to the point where they're actually keen to go on the adventures I hint to them. (Can you hint something directionally? Grammar odd.) And even when they don't, I've got a few scripted encounters to spring on them, a good idea of the world structure, and villains whose agenda could very easily lead them into villain-initiated contact with the PCs. I think it's called realism - presupposing the initial plotline, which is a closely guarded secret. But it makes sense.
 

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Wow, lots of interesting conversation going on here. Now, I feel like I need to explain myself a little better. Especially since we seem to be leading into discussions on GMing style. This will be a long post and it will deal much more with my GMing style and how I work to accomodate Free Will into my game. (What can I say, I am extremely verbose.)

First off, for the benefit of Henry and Diaglo - I can spend several hours a week on my character for the game I play in! In fact, there are times when I spend more effort on my character than I do on the game I run. The game I play in has a long story arc that we have barely touched. I rehash clues, I catalog NPC's for future reference, contingency planning on how I can use my character's abilities for various bad scenarios, I plan out probable development in both mechanics areas as well as characterization, we have a webboard that we post to, we have personal and group logs, all sorts of fun. I don't step into Stephen's character on only the nights we game. (Heck, look at my logon name. I chose that name so that my DM would know which posts were mine when he checks the boards on EN World!) So, Diaglo, you aren't the only one spending lots of character time. :)

Now, that being said ...

I do spend a lot of time on the game I run. I suppose you could consider it "prep time", though some people certainly would not. The current GM'ing style I have adopted is to have several storylines available, but I don't flesh out hardly anything until just before I need it. Generally speaking, my players will default back to these storylines if nothing else has their attention. However, I am perfectly happy to let my players look for new opportunities. If a character wants to do research to try to find a lost tomb to loot .. erm, explore, I will work with them on that. Actually, I love that type of thing! It lets me dust off adventure ideas, old modules, or whatever. I am also happy to bring in story hooks from their character history, past scenarios, or the NPC looking to hire. Obviously, before I introduce any of these, I have a pretty good idea of what will transpire if the PC's "take the bait". Sometimes I also provide incentive to give up a little Free Will.

Example: In the game I run, the Cleric had advanced up a fair number of levels. However, he hardly ever spent any time in his church when he was in town. Eventually, he reached the point where he was the second most powerful cleric of his God in town. He started asking the HP to teach him some of the unusual spells (IMC - Any spell that isn't in the Core books is not automatically available. You have to find a tutor, recover it from tombs, etc.) that he knew the HP had access to. The HP took him aside and pointedly told him that he did not have time to devote to those that took their priestly duties less seriously and did not better the church any. (This cleric hadn't even donated money to the church.) However, the HP did have time to work with the Paladin when the Paladin wanted things. By contrast, the Paladin was very good about checking in at the church to see if he could help out in any way, every time they returned to town. The player got the message and started to volunteer around the church more when he was in town. Eventually, he even volunteered to take on a quest for the Church. That quest was a bear of an adventure for the party.

Did I railroad the game? I would say not. The player chose not to participate in the church and the HP resented having an 8th level cleric around that wanted to use the Temple as a convenience store. Action => Consequence. The player chose to volunteer for a quest and then talked the party into participating. The party grumbled about it, but they went along. Essentially, I was able to run exactly the game I wanted to for that quest. But, the players chose to let me do that. Now, I specifically chose to give them an adventure that I wanted to run and that I thought they would have fun doing. If I hadn't done that, I would have expected a lot of grumbling about my DM'ing. Admittedly, I have been playing with this group for a few years. I have developed a pretty good feel for what they like. :)

So, they gave up a bit of their Free Will, but it was completely in-character. The Cleric wanted special training from the HP. He worked for it. However, the incentive I provided was based on previous choices of the player. If the Cleric had always been very active in the church, he would have recieved those unusual spells right away. I let the choices drive the game.

But, back to only prepping what I need to. This was a survival technique! Many years ago, I would spend a great deal of time putting together an adventure. I would map out every room, stat out every NPC, all sorts of things. What I found out was that I developed an idea of how the party should proceed through my adventure. Then, if they did something unexpected, I would get very defensive and do everything I could to drive them back onto my idea of the story. I would agonize over these things and my players would end up not enjoying the game as much. It really made me a bad DM. :( At some point, I realized that if I let go of that to some degree and stopped investing so much in the details, I could react to changes better.

So, what is the majority of the work I put into the game now? It is almost all in my head. On my way to work, I may be thinking about the personality of the NPC that they party will probably meet. I will try to understand the motives of the NPC. Come up with mannerisms, styles of dress, all sorts of things. If/when I break down and stat out the NPC, it is really easy! I take the idea in my head and convert it to stats. I actually take a notepad with me to lunch many times. I can often stat out the majority of the NPC while I eat.

I may think about the storylines I have out there for the PC's to participate in. I can fine-tune these ideas. I can advance their timelines, figure out what resources might be needed for the vile plot to overthrow the world, whatever. If it is a storyline that the PC's have not engaged themselves into, I can decide what "news items" might come out of the advancement. Maybe this will get the PC's attention, but if it doesn't, it still makes the game feel alive.

If I know the PC's are getting to a lost tomb, haunted ruin, hidden cult hideout, or whatever, soon, I will begin to think about what the place looks like. Then, when I put pencil to paper, the layout comes very rapidly.

The key, for me, is that all of these things are fun for me. It is also something I can do when I am anywhere I can think. It also means that I know what is going on around the PC's, so if they do something unexpected, I can roll with it and wing it for a bit. I suspect that all of us do this to one degree or another. But, I used to rush to paper too quickly. I wouldn't consider all the options and I wouldn't even spend as much time trying to engage the player's interest with a strong story hook. I had a cool idea and I wanted to develop it completely. Once I did that, I began to have an "investment" in my work and I would feel bitterly disappointed if the players didn't like it, or if the deviated from the course I imagined.

By adopting a different style, I run a much better game. I asked one of my players about how much Free Will I give them in the game just last night. I was curious what his take on it would be. He thinks I give them complete Free Will and if a character can come up with a good enough reason, I will let them do anything. Frankly, I was a little surprised at his answer. I didn't think that was quite true, but I do take it as a compliment. I had asked the person I felt would be most likely to respond on how I have not allowed Free Will. I mean, I do have multiple storylines that are moving forward in the world. Even if the PC's are not participating in them. This player knows that. They seem to like the feeling of being able to choose to work on thwarting those nasty storylines, or going and doing something else.

I do try to determine what my players want to do next. I listen to their conversation and I talk with the players afterward. I try to get a lot of feedback on what they are enjoying, where their character development is going and what their plans are. This gives me better "food for thought" during my mental prep time.
 

I'll be honest, some of the people's responses on player prep time have surprised me. Then again, I also note that Bardstephenfox, Diaglo, and myself, and most of the other respondents in the thread, are also DM's. Maybe it's the level of participation in the game overall? I know that in my past groups, those who DM on a regular basis do far more with their PC's out of game than those who do not.

Hmm. :confused:

All of the things B.S.F. mentions, my players do on a microscale just before the game begins, rather than out of game. I have a great group of friends with whom I play, but I'd be beside myself if I had a group of players with that much participation coming from 'em. :)

On the other hand, if I had a group that involved, I would wind up spending TWICE as much time preparing as I already do... :eek:
 
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Henry said:
I'll be honest, some of the people's responses on player prep time have surprised me. Then again, I also note that Bardstephenfox, Diaglo, and myself, and most of the other respondents in the thread, are also DM's. Maybe it's the level of participation in the game overall? I know that in my past groups, those who DM on a regular basis do far more with their PC's out of game than those who do not.

Hmm. :confused:

All of the things B.S.F. mentions, my players do on a microscale just before the game begins, rather than out of game. I have a great group of friends with whom I play, but I'd be beside myself if I had a group of players with that much participation coming from 'em. :)

On the other hand, if I had a group that involved, I would wind up spending TWICE as much time preparing as I already do... :eek:
I am a DM also and I tend to find myself thinking on things while on class, driving, working, whatever, if I have a seond free than my mind i on D&D. I am gonna start a campaign sometime soon and haven't a clue about what kind of thing to do, the reason is the survey and a session for character, rules and group dedsires that i am gonna setup, from all that will come what is gonna be the campaign...

By the way i posted the survey, you can get it at this thread: [url]http://enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41813[/url]
 

Henry said:
I'll be honest, some of the people's responses on player prep time have surprised me. Then again, I also note that Bardstephenfox, Diaglo, and myself, and most of the other respondents in the thread, are also DM's. Maybe it's the level of participation in the game overall? I know that in my past groups, those who DM on a regular basis do far more with their PC's out of game than those who do not.

Hmm. :confused:

All of the things B.S.F. mentions, my players do on a microscale just before the game begins, rather than out of game. I have a great group of friends with whom I play, but I'd be beside myself if I had a group of players with that much participation coming from 'em. :)

On the other hand, if I had a group that involved, I would wind up spending TWICE as much time preparing as I already do... :eek:

Hmm, it could be. But, I also find that the people that like to put the most into gaming as a hobby will often end up in the role of the DM. Maybe DM's tend to be a bit more rabid about DnD? :)

For the group I play in, we all put in non-game time for the game. Maybe we don't all put hours per week into it, but it is more than just the game table.
 

Generally, I find that a bit of railroading is neccessary at the begin of an adventure or a campaign. I have to draw in the PCs somehow so that they can participate in an adventure, and if I have to set up specific circumstances so that all the PCs get involved, so be it. Fortunately, my players are mature enough to accept it, and usually go along with it.

After the initial "hook", the PCs are usually sufficiently motivated to pursue the adventure themselves. I try to keep things fairly open at this point - there are all sorts of ways the PCs could investigate the situation further. And if they come up with something novel, I might even create a new clue where none existed before.

But if the PCs are truely unwilling to pursue a situation further for whatever reason, I'll wrap the session up and let it drop for now. Possibly the situation worsens thanks to the PCs inactivity, and they will learn about it later and realize that they made a big mistake. Or maybe not - it's a big world, and with the PCs wandering all over the place, they don't necessarily have to learn anything more.

It helps that I rarely plan out adventures in detail by more than one or two sessions in advance. Thus, when the PCs decide to drop something, I'm not emotionally attached to the current plot enough to railroad the PCs into following it...
 

takyris said:
I'm quoting your early message, rather than the later ones.

First off, I am the DM, and I do put in all the work. I'm sorry if this offends you or makes you feel bad or defensive, but there you have it. My players will occasionally talk tactics between sessions, but it's a rare occasion when one of my players puts in work-time between sessions. Heck, I handed out XP when one guy made a new character sheet in anticipation of gaining a level that night.

I, have to stat out the bad guys that the PCs might be facing if they take certain actions. Sometimes I just slack and say that the main villain has right-out-of-the-MM henchmen, but more often, in an effort to make things a little more personalized and interesting, I slap on a few character levels or a template or something for at least one of the main henchmen. When your PCs are 12th-15th level, the DM ends up doing a lot more work, because the number of monsters available as a fun challenge gets smaller -- which means that you either have to buy more material or add levels to or advance basic creatures. Beyond that, the PCs can now teleport places, which means that you've got to have at least some kind of basic plan for anywhere the players might show up.

The PCs still throw me for a loop sometimes, and I do spend some of the time winging it -- but I don't think that 3rd Edition D&D is something that's terribly easy to wing unless you're REALLY in your comfort zone. I mean, sure, I can run a 10th level fighter without stats -- I can just squint and guess that his melee attack bonus is something like +15/+10 after strength and magical bonuses, and he probably does 1d8+5+1d6 of some kind of element with his axe or sword or whatever I just said that he had. Maybe the players won't even know that I'm fudging. By and large, though, the game runs a lot more smoothly when I've done my homework.

As far as people owing me anything... pick whatever word you want. I like Henry's host-and-party metaphor. Yeah, they have an obligation to bring chips if I said it was a pot luck. Yeah, they have an obligation to wear a costume if I said it was a costume party. If they don't, they're being rude.

Frankly, though, I think we're talking about different things, and maybe we're both setting up straw men. There was another thread about this awhile back, and my point of differentiation was metagaming. In my opinion:

The evil wizard laughs. "You fools, you've just unwittingly agreed to my geas! Now you must go and slay the gorgon-lich of Kazrak! To do anything else will seal your doom!"

is not railroading. The PCs have several options. They can try to kill the wizard, try to break the enchantment, try to just leave and hope that the geas wears off. They can try to bribe the wizard with something else. They can go to the gorgon-lich and see if the gorgon-lich can take the geas off them and then team up with them against the wizard.

On the other hand, this is railroading.

PC: Okay, I cast Detect Magic. Can I see the geas?
DM: No, and you have to start walking right now.
PC: I'm going to bluff the wizard and try to make him think I'm immune to his geas, so he ought to just let it drop.
DM: Um, he doesn't fall for it.
PC: Do I even get to roll?
DM: No.
PC: Okay, I'm gonna cast Sending and send a message to the gorgon-lich that we're being forced to come fight him.
DM: You can't, 'cause that's against the geas.
PC: What? The geas said we had to go there and kill him. It didn't say we couldn't warn him first!
DM: Well, the geas stops you anyway. Now, two days later, you're at the entrance to the cave...


The DM is not expected to do nothing that puts any in-game pressure on the PCs to act. The DM is not expected to make every adventure a purely voluntary decision. The DM is not expected to always allow PCs to turn down adventuring choices without any in-game ramifications -- like the destruction of a town that they decided not to go save, the ascension of a cult that they decided not to go eradicate, and so on. If every adventure involves people holding the PCs' friends hostage while entire towns will be destroyed if they make any other decision, that's lame and a sign of a lack of imagination -- and yeah, that's probably railroading by habit. But expecting it to never happen is silly. Your PCs are not the most powerful forces in the universe. Excitement requires conflict. Many great movies involve unwitting or initially reluctant heroes. It should be a give and take between the players and the DM.

So perhaps our viewpoints are not so far apart.

It doesn't offend me that you put in a lot of out-of-play time. I'm sure you do. I just don't think its relevant. I dm a game now, and put in a fair amount of prep. But I do not expect my players to waste their time on something they don't find fun.

And it would seem difficult to improvise under the standards you set for your game. But as you noted, you are a detail freak. You wish to stat every npc down to skill rank and feat? Jeez...in most cases the players won't even notice..you could use the DMG npcs for combat and 'wave' the fluff stuff. As to higher level monsters with levels? Ok, for that to be worth the effort balance wise, you would almost always have to add a 'fighting' class. It pretty simple just to add average hp, BAB, and your choice feats on the fly..i could do it in 5 minutes or less...but how often will you really do this? Why not simply advance standard hd? That would get you a buffed monster with less math..As to teleport, the entire point of improvising is to just make up stuff. As a dm, you are in command of the details..will it neccessarily 'fit' with or be as detailed as your prepped vision? No, but your players will appreciate getting some use out of their utility spells. I still maintain that its not that difficult to 'wing' it and it doesn't seem as if you are even really trying.

As to the entire freedom of choice issue. I didn't weigh in on that. My view is that of a lot of other posters..some players like direction, some don't. I'm just noting that players shouldn't be obligated to give up their freewheeling preferences because of an anal, detail-obsessed dm. You do choose to put in that work. If you really like the prep and would like to see it worked out, but your players aren't willing...get another group!!! Its really that simple.
 

arnwyn said:
Meh. "Watered-down" or not, I do ascribe to the whole host/party concept (see Henry's post) of social dynamics. If a lot of work has been done, put at least a little effort in. If shortly you find out that it doesn't float your boat, then walk away without guilt.

Indeed. As we all know, good improvisation skills is the hallmark of a good DM.

That would be nice, but one shouldn't really expect it. Most players for convenience sake will just go along with it and may learn to love it. But if a player, for whatever reason, doesn't feel he has been given the neccessary motivation, and he places a lot of emphasis on that, there are only two solutions; the dm get better at hooking, or, everyone concedes the players'/dm's priorities don't match and everyone walks away.

As to players being obligated to telling the dm what they want so that he can prep for it, i'm sure most players would be more than willing, but the devil is in the implementation. Its entirly possible that the scenario will still not be counted as 'fun' by the players. If this happens often, its most likely the case that the dm and players lack an essential 'chemistry'. No shame on either side, but no hard in fast rules and obligations will fix this. That is the inevitable result of self-selection, but no one should feel the need to sacrafice for something they don't think is fun.
 

Nifelhein said:
I care, and also am interested on how you handle a game with a normal world, with normal people and normal life, rare uncommon wandering monsters...


Not that it's a "normal" world, just that it's not crawling with dangers at every turn. I tend to take the position that your average commoner just goes about his daily life, tending to his farms. It's a bit cliche for me if they are constantly struggling against a repressive army of orcs all the time, or dire wolves come in and steal their sheep all the time, or whatever. I've always tried to convey a sense of normalcy in the world despite the existence of dragons, and undead, and whatever. That is to say, that the graveyard outside of town is a graveyard, and even on a full moon there are no zombies walking around in it at night. Unless, of course, there's a *reason* for zombies to be walking around in it at night, but that's not usually the case.
 

die_kluge said:
Not that it's a "normal" world, just that it's not crawling with dangers at every turn. I tend to take the position that your average commoner just goes about his daily life, tending to his farms. It's a bit cliche for me if they are constantly struggling against a repressive army of orcs all the time, or dire wolves come in and steal their sheep all the time, or whatever. I've always tried to convey a sense of normalcy in the world despite the existence of dragons, and undead, and whatever. That is to say, that the graveyard outside of town is a graveyard, and even on a full moon there are no zombies walking around in it at night. Unless, of course, there's a *reason* for zombies to be walking around in it at night, but that's not usually the case.
Oh I got it, like the Shire on Lord of the Rings... That is quite a good approach and one I tend to take, of course there are orcs, but they don't always strive to be raiding, plundering or conquering human lands...

If you want adventure, Frodo Baggins, you better go a good way for it!
 

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