From minion to level 1 : the power step

[Skyscraper]

There appears to exist a power step between level 1 minions and level 1 standard creatures that level 1 PCs face, that doesn't exist when PCs hit higher levels in the game. I find this odd.

Creatures that level 1 PCs encounter are, on average, higher level than the PCs. There are no creatures of level 0.25, 0.5 or 0.75. The opponents are, at the weakest, of the same level; and many are of higher level. Most have more hit points than the PCs.

Except the minions. Minions are creatures that are very weak. One hit, one kill. Why then, are there not creatures of a strength that lies between that of a minion and that of level 1 opponents?

When PCs hit higher levels, creatures of lower levels - relative to the PCs- pop up. At any level but level 1, this is possible. (Let's say that this situation exists throughout levels 1-3 in reality, but it is most apparent at level 1.)

The hit points is where it bugs me most (though it can probably be tagged more precisely with damage/HP ratios, but we'll simplifiy things knowing that level 1 PC damage and monster damage is pretty much set at determined values). At level 1, most opponents have more HPs than the PCs. Again, except the minions. If it weren't for the minions, we could simply say: the PCs and other level 1 creatures are the weakest. But they aren't. The minions are. There exists this power step between being a minion and being a level 1 PC or creature, that doesn't really exist elsewhere in the game.

Now I understand the mechanic behind the minion approach; I'm just not sold on creatures having either 1 HP or 25 HPs and more with nothing in-between, for opposing level 1 PCs. Especially since this step only exists at level 1, considering that at higher levels you can have gradually stronger creatures. For example, say you have PCs of level 10, here is a simplified linear power chart of opponents for these PCs

Level 10 minion < level 5 standard creature < level 6 standard creature < level 7 standard creature < ... < level 10 standard creature < ... < level 14 standard creature < level 10 elite creature < level 15 standard creature < ... < level 10 solo creature

But at level 1, you just have the following chart:

Level 1 minion < level 1 standard creature < level 2 standard creature < ...

(The math is unimportant in the above charts, i.e. where does the level 10 minion stand precisely compared to the other standard creatures facing a level 10 party, I'm not after that right now. I've also removed from the chart the minions or varying level and whatnot, for simplicity.)

So, there appears to be a power step from level 1 minion to level 1 standard, for opposing level 1 PCs, not found at higher levels.

Thoughts?

Sky

p.s.: this is meant to be a discussion for the fun of it, for those who feel like participating. It is not a deep criticism of the system or anything. Just so we're clear

 

[MatthewJHanson]

I have often thought about (but have not yet tried) creating level 0 monsters and maybe even level -1 monsters. You should be able to use the same math that you use for every other monster and have it work out (mostly) fine.

For example a skirmisher normally gets hit points equal to 8 + Constitution + (level x 8).
A level 0 skirmisher would have 8 + Con + 0 hp
A level -1 skirmisher would have 8 + Con - 8 hp (or just Constitution)

The only problem is that a -1 brute would have fewer HP than a lurker. Otherwise it should work okay.

 

[Obryn]

I think minions are fine being just one-hit mooks no matter what level you are, and Level 1 minions don't bother me at all - no more than Level 20 minions do. If you're looking at them from a simulation perspective, I think you're looking at them wrong. They serve a story purpose - nothing more.

But if it bothers you, just add in minions that get bloodied from the first hit and die from the second.

-O

 

[RHGreen]

I think minions are fine being just one-hit mooks no matter what level you are, and Level 1 minions don't bother me at all - no more than Level 20 minions do. If you're looking at them from a simulation perspective, I think you're looking at them wrong. They serve a story purpose - nothing more.

But if it bothers you, just add in minions that get bloodied from the first hit and die from the second.

-O

The best way IMO is that whenever a minion is dealt damage for whatever reason they should get a death save to see if they die. This means on average they are going to die after 2 hits (45% die, 55% live)

This has almost the same effect as the bloodied idea.

Also it should apply to damage caused by misses. That means you don't have auto kills (for example magic missile) but more effects will have a chance of killing a minion instead of a blanket ban.

It might be better to make the death save against 10+damage inflicted. Otherwise you might get minions that just refuse to die and carry on way after the rest have been slaughtered.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

For the most part, it's pretty easy to convert a standard level 1 monster to level 0: -1 to attacks and defenses, and subtract the number of hit points they get per level based on monster role.

 

[mkill]

I don't know why so many DMs are bothered about minions so much. Minions don't serve a tactical purpose. Minions are on the board to die. Minions are there to make the PCs look cool, to allow fast, big fights where the enemies drop like flies. Minions are there to make heroes feel like heroes.
There is a very simple countermeasure if you feel that minions die too fast: Use more. Don't be afraid to set up encounters with 10, 20 minions, or a "minion generator" that keeps sending them. Don't worry if they all die before they get their first attack in. They're just warmup.

As for "level 0 monsters", I don't think they are that necessary. It's not really an issue to make one - just take a level 1 monster, knock 1 off all attacks and defenses, reduce all damage by one, and remove 8 hit points. Done.

 

[Pseudopsyche]

What about level 2 minions? They are stronger than level 1 minions and weaker than level 2 minions. (They require more attacks from a level 1 PC, on average, to hit than a level 1 minion.)

But in practice, I like to use level 0 and level -1 monsters, as others have suggested.

 

[Skyscraper]

Thanks for the posts.

Two thoughts, according to the two types of answers I got.

1) I don't mind minions. I like the concept. My post is not about minions. It's about the power step between minions and the level 1 standard monsters that doesn't exist at higher levels.

2) Cool idea to create level 0 or even level -1 monsters. For some reason I had never thought about that - though I did use negative level modifications for higher level monsters. Since one of the campaigns I'm DMing is in its first steps at level 1, I might well use this right now!

I also like the saving throw idea for minion survivability (a minion hit makes a save: miss = die, success = live). I don't think I would use this idea myself, but I find the solution elegant nonetheless due to its simplicity: no book keeping required, when a minion is hit, you save for him and leave him there if he lives or remove him from the board if he dies. One reason I would not use this idea is that I don't like that a minion would survive a strong daily power improved by the warlord and the cleric's buffs as much as he would the 3 HP damage side-effect from the Cleave at-will, but it remains the best idea I've seen yet for having minions survive more than one attack while keeping the gist of the minion mechanic.

Sky

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I'd say generally I haven't found the lack of less than level 1 monsters to be much of an issue. For one thing it is pretty rare to want to use a monster below the party's level. It does happen, but not often. At level 1 especially minions can be QUITE effective though. This is because of action economy. Level 1 PCs don't have a lot of ways to shift this in their favor. They also generally lack a lot of ways to sweep minions. You can see the issue by say tossing 20 level 1 kobold minions at a 1st level party. The result will not be pretty. The monsters get 20 attacks in the first round. Sure they don't do a TON of damage, but they actually DO do pretty close to the average damage of a level 1 monster.

Now, if you were using level 0 monsters or level -1 monsters you'd get a similar effect. Filling out an encounter with them might be pretty nasty. I'd be more tempted to just use a mix of minions and level 1 monsters if I wanted to make an easier than level 1 encounter.

 

[FabioMilitoPagliara]

What about level 2 minions? They are stronger than level 1 minions and weaker than level 2 minions. (They require more attacks from a level 1 PC, on average, to hit than a level 1 minion.)

But in practice, I like to use level 0 and level -1 monsters, as others have suggested.

I think that never should be used "minion" of higher level than the PC or at most 1-3 level more