From minion to level 1 : the power step

[Tony Vargas]

Another consideration is 4e's 'broken math.' That is, without expertise and other 'feat taxes,' monsters pull ahead of PCs over time. So a PC's chance to hit a 1st level monster at 1st level is better than his chance to hit a 15th level monster at 15th level, which is better than his chance to hit a 30th level monster at 30th. If monsters, like PCs, ranged strictly for 1 to 30, then the 'broken math' could be viewed as a way of normalizing PC challenges, such that even 1st level PCs faced some monsters that were relatively 'easy' to hit, even though there were no lower-level monsters and 30th level PCs faced some that were relatively 'hard' to hit, even though there were no higher-level ones.

I kinda like the idea. It is, however, blown away by the existance of higher-than-30th-level monsters. Zero and lower level monsters, therefore, would seem to be the corresponding solution to the issue at 1st level.

 

[Henry]

For minions, I don't mind the 1 hp, but I do alter their damage from static damage to 1d3 + (listed damage -2). That way, they're a little less "minion-y" when they do variable damage, even if the average is the same. When someone is doing an average of 10 damage, does it really matter if the enemy has 1 hit point, 5, or 10?

 

[Skyscraper]

When someone is doing an average of 10 damage, does it really matter if the enemy has 1 hit point, 5, or 10?

I'm not sure I understand your question: do you mean that level 0 or level -1 creatures would have between 5 and 10 HPs?

I'm thinking more about having monsters in the range of 12-20 hit points for example (as opposed to 25 or more). Obviously it would not be very useful to create creatures with 5 HPs, but 15 HPs? One that can be killed with a daily or a striker attack, but that takes 2 or even 3 at-wills to kill? Why not.

 

[SlimJim]

My idea for mooks that take 2 hits (or the death save) is to also to give them a damage threshold. I haven't done any math for it, but I'm guessing about 1/4 of the normal HP. If this threshold is surpassed, then it dies. That way you don't have to worry about it surviving a powered-up daily.

 

[mudlock]

My idea for mooks that take 2 hits (or the death save) is to also to give them a damage threshold. I haven't done any math for it, but I'm guessing about 1/4 of the normal HP. If this threshold is surpassed, then it dies. That way you don't have to worry about it surviving a powered-up daily.

I've also played with the idea of thresholds. Damage below the threshold bloodies the minion (and any damage on a bloodied minion defeats it). I was thinking something like 3+level (which is closer to 1/8th of normal) because my concern was very-low-damage powers having an over-sized effect, without making it so a striker would ever need two hits to take one out.

 

[S'mon]

Technically minions of levels 1-8 are all 'beneath' level 1 standard monsters, in that they're worth less XP. If you're running a 9th level game it makes sense to convert level 1 standard monsters into level 9 minions. Generally though I tend to see a level 1 standard as a "low level heroic" foe and a level 9 minion as a "skilled mundane", ie they represent different things in the game-world. So for instance in designing a bandit gang, I use the Common Bandit-2 standard monster as their "scouts", typically encountered in small numbers outside their fortress, and 5th level minions as their "bravos", encountered en masse in the fortress and accompanying the bandit leaders.

The existence of standard monsters below 1st level is another issue. The system would appear to easily support 0th level monsters, just apply the usual formula and you'll get useable stats. At a pinch you can have -1th level monsters, but then hit points will equal CON alone, stripping out the main benefit Brutes have and disbenefit for the low-hp monsters.

Technically a -3rd level monster should be worth 50 XP, extrapolating the XP formula backwards, but I would suggest having 0th level monsters be worth 75 XP, -1st level monsters be worth 50 XP, and below that use minion-1 or say they're noncombatant.

Typical 0 level monster: ATT+5 damage 1d8+3 AC 14 F/R/W 12 HP 22 XPV 75
Typical -1 level monster: ATT +4 damage 1d8+2 AC 13 F/R/W 11 HP 14 XPV 50

Those look like reasonable stats to me.

Edit: I think Level -2 is also useable at a pinch:
Typical -2 level monster: ATT +3 damage 1d8+1 AC 12 F/R/W 10 HP 6 XPV 25
This guy should probably be replaced with a minion-1, though.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I guess level -x is not really needed, but i want that slider on the Monster viewer to go down to zero... it already goes up to 50 or more...