Frontline Rogue?

[Rhun]

I thought about this and the DM might let me do this; he is willing to let us retrain per the PHB2 (4 skill points a level, 1 feat a level, etc...). But what feats would she take? She has a STR of 10, so Sneak Attack was the only real way to deal damage.

You could try this build if you can change your feats out:

Rogue 5 / Fighter 2 / Shadowdancer 2/ Dervish...

Works well as a twin-weapon sneak attacker. Hide in plain sight, come out flanking your foe, twin weapon sneak attacks. I suppose you really wouldn't need the dervish, but it actually fit the PC I played quite nicely.

 

[Feldspar]

The first thing I have to say would be directed to your DM that he should definately let you guys tweak and change your existing characters to deal with the loss of the other player. Its in the best interests of everyone - 3.x is a system that rewards character planning and punishes haphazard choices. You guys shouldn't be punished because another player left.

The second thing would be to the player of the Artificer that they should step and rejigger their character to take on the trap finding-disarming role. They have Trapfinding and Search, Disable Device and Open Locks as class skills so they can fill that roll without even having to multiclass. Removing that responsibility from you lets your rogue skill points cover your social abilities as you multiclass to beef up your combat resilience. Also, if you were putting points into being a scout (Hide and Move Silently), that would be a role that the Ranger coud fill.

You know, as odd as it sounds, I think that 16 is getting wasted in Charisma. My view is that the most important thing for a social character is that they have enough skill points to keep the relevant skills maxed. Those skillpoints (don't forget the synergy bonuses!) are going to do the heavy lifting. Now that you're taking on more combat, I'd think that you'd be most optimized with a 12 in Cha and Con bumped up to 16.

From a game mechanics standpoint, Two-Weapon Defense became worthless when they added Improved Buckler Defense. Personally, though, I think Bucklers should work like the Dodge feat (applies to one target only) and even then I'd be iffy on allowing that feat in a campaign.

You should definately consider what three levels of Swashbuckler give you. You get +3 BAB, 3d10 hit die, Weapon Finesse and can add your Int to damage. If your int is +4 or better (not too hard with buff magic) that's effectively the same as 1d6 of sneak attack damage. And here's the kicker, 4 skill points per level and Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive and Tumble are all in your class skill list.

Further down the line, the Tempest PRC could help as well. Over five levels you're getting 5d10 hit die, +7 BAB, and +3 to AC. And while spring attacking means you're not getting in all of your multiple attacks, it is a good way to help you stay alive and the two weapon spring attack effectively lets you spring attack as well as a straight rogue. You've got less sneak attack damage per attack, but you're hitting twice.

My plan for a TWF-sneak attack damage that can survive ticking off the enemy looked like this:

lvl Class  BAB  feats & (class abilities)
 1  Rog 1   0   TWF, (sneak attack 1d6)
 2  Swa 1   1   (Weapon Finesse)
 3  Ftr 1   2   Dodge, Mobility
 4  Rog 2   3   (Evasion)
 5  Swa 2   4   (Grace +1)
 6  Swa 3   5   Spring Attack, (Insightful Strike)
 7  Ftr 2   6   Improved TWF
 8  Rog 3   7   (sneak attack 2d6)
 9  Tmp 1   8   _______, (defense +1)
10  Rog 4   9   
11  Tmp 2  10   (Ambidexterity -3/-1)
12  Tmp 3  11   Greater TWF, (Defense +2, TW versatility)
13  Rog 5  11   (sneak attack 3d6)
14  Tmp 4  12   (Ambidexterity -2/+0)
15  Tmp 5  13   _______, (defense +3, TW spring attack)

Finish up with 5 levels of Rogue and you've got something that has a BAB of 19, averages d8 hit die, and adds Int + 5d6 to sneak attacks.

Your being a changeling with favored class of Rogue complicates things a bit as that class order would give an XP penalty during level 6. You can tweak the order, but it basically means that you'd have to wait until level 9 to get Improved TWF.

On the other hand, here's a case for why its may be okay to just grab as many rogue levels as fast as possible:
* Crippling Strike as your 10th level Rogue ability - inflicts 2 points of Str damage every time you hit with a sneak attack, this was *made* for a TWF'ing rogue
* Staggering Strike (feat from Complete Adventurer) - every time you do a sneak attack, foe must make Fort save equal to the damage done or be staggered (can only take a standard action) for one round. Limits the damage that can be done back at you.

Warshaper is pretty uber - you made a good call there. No crits and +4 to str and and con is huge. The third level is also powerful, but would be best utilized with some kind of reach polearm using build, so that you could make full attacks from a range not reachable by a 5' step. The spiked chain is a finessable reach weapon, but it doesn't fit in with your TWF concept.

That was a pretty rambling post, but hopefully there's some stuff in there that will be useful to you in figuring out what to do.

 

[rgard]

I thought about this and the DM might let me do this; he is willing to let us retrain per the PHB2 (4 skill points a level, 1 feat a level, etc...). But what feats would she take? She has a STR of 10, so Sneak Attack was the only real way to deal damage.

Here are her abilities.
STR 10
CON 12
DEX 18
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 16

Ok, the 10 strength that precludes you from power attack and cleave. You do have a 14 Int so maybe taking a couple levels of swashbuckler would work. You get insightful strike at 3rd level (if memory serves me correctly) which allows you to add your int bonus to your damage done. That's +2 which almost makes up for the loss of sneak attack if you did go with the martial rogue variant. It'll get to +3 if you put your ability boni into intelligence.

You do get d10 for hit points and you can continue many of the rogue combat related skills like tumble.

If you do go the martial rogue route, I would focus on taking the rest of the two-weapon fighting feat progression.

I'm certain there are other feats in Complete Scoundrel, Complete Warrior or Complete Adventurer that could work for you. I don't have the books handy, but will take a look at them in the next day or two and get back to this thread.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Mistwell]

Why isn't the Dwarven Urban Ranger stepping into the front line role?

 

[Darklone]

Complete Scoundrel has a nice multiclass feat to add the swashy and rogue levels for sneak attack progression... Daring Outlaw. Pretty useful for that build above. Add Daring Warrior (name?) and your fighter and swashy levels stack too for some effects.

 

[Darklone]

Can anyone elaborate upon the feats bolded in the quote above? I don't think I'm familiar with the TWF feat that he is referencing.

I missed Dual Strike (CAdv). I guess that's what he meant. Kinda Manyshot for TWF dudes, one attack roll for two strikes with both weapons as a standard action.

 

[Dheran]

If you're allowed to rebuild, my suggestions is to drop the Fighter levels; pick up Barbarian instead. More hit points, +10 ft. speed is awesome for a flanker who tumbles a lot, and Rage can save your life if used judiciously.

I agree with Nifft, and I'd like to add another reason: Uncanny Dodge. Your 2nd level of Barbarian gives you this, which combined with the 4th level Rogue ability automatically promotes you to Improved Uncanny Dodge. Or, you have the option to instead use the Disruptive Attack alternate class feature (Players Handbook II, page 57), which will let you hit opponents' AC with a -5 penalty instead of applying sneak attack damage -- and this works on sneak-immune creatures like undead, too! With Barbarian 2 instead of Fighter 2 and your Rogue levels you can still have Uncanny Dodge and be able to hurt enemies that your sneak attack doesn't affect.

Regardless of your class choices, I suggest you pick up a wand of Longstrider for a cost of 750 gp for each 50 hours of +10' speed enhancement. (If your Use Magic Device skill is low you'll want to buy this wand at a higher caster level so you can get your uses/day down to 1 or 2, because the worst case if you fail your UMD check is that you can't use the wand again for 24 hours.) A long-lasting +10' speed boost is great, and if you also go the Barbarian route (+20' total) you'll be able to Tumble half speed and nearly match others' base movement. (Of course you want to get your Tumble ranks up to the point where you can make accelerated tumbling a normal practice.)

 

[Jarrod]

We have a combat rogue in the party as well. Here's what she's got:

Rogue 4 - 3d6 SA and uncanny dodge. Oh, and evasion.
Swashbuckler for the rest. Complete Scoundrel has a stacking feat, and that lets you trade skill points for BAB and HD. It was mentioned previously, but I'll mention it again - Rogue/Swashbuckler is the way to go.

If you have access to Tome of Battle, look at Swordsage 2. If you take the second level at 9th character level, you can get access to two stances: one allows you to flank just by being adjacent, and the other gives 2d6 SA. Oh, and wisdom-to-AC in light armor. And weapon focus. And you can take a feat for dex to damage.

So at 9th, Firain (the rogue) will be R4/SS2/S3, doing either 4d6 SA and flanking if anyone else is nearby, or 6d6 SA. With dex to damage, and misc. Swordsage maneuvers (things like short-range-teleport).

 

[Tessarael]

I would recommend taking levels up to Fighter 4, Weapon Specialization (Shortsword), and Weapon Mastery (Piercing). +4 damage and +2 to attack is nice if you're wielding two shortswords.

 

[Darklone]

I would recommend taking levels up to Fighter 4, Weapon Specialization (Shortsword), and Weapon Mastery (Piercing). +4 damage and +2 to attack is nice if you're wielding two shortswords.

+3 to attack since you need Weapon Focus IIRC. Don't forget Deadly Defense.