[FROSTBURN] The Ritiik -- Too Good?

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

My advice to your players: KNOW WHEN TO RUN, FOOLS!

Seriously, they do outdoor adventures, and nobody has any ranged weapons skills?

Why don't they rub themselves in BBQ sauce for the goblins?

 

[Lord Wyrm]

Everyone should carry a ranged weapon. Because when the dragon torches the mage and takes to the air you better hope you have a bow.

 

[Lord Wyrm]

Also, the weapon isn't that bad, its actually kind of weak as exotic weapons go. Until you add in spellwarped, wild magic zone, and strong creatures with reach, that really starts sting.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Actually, I did. If you look at the math I posted, I list a chance to hit on the touch attack (usually 85-95%) as well as a chance to hit normally. When I ran the figures, I increased the chance to hit normally by 20% for Improved Trip. Nor was the reflex save ignored. If you read the post, I assumed a 20% success rate (on the assumption that, past the very low APLs, a strong character using a two-handed weapon is going to dish out enough damage to make the reflex save rather difficult--by level 14 or so, it should be positively impossible barring moment of prescience, etc). IMO, the only dubious part of the math is the reflex save, but without settling on an iconic ritiil wielder and an a series of specific opponents, you won't be able to come up with any figure that isn't arbitrary.

As it happens, the math also matches my experience playing with a character who uses Improved Trip. My friend's character is a pretty good tripper but using Improved Trip makes a noticable dent in his damage output.

I disagree. In fact, I don't agree with most (if any) of your examples because you are not taking into account the touch AC vs full AC, the penalties for being prone, the bonus for having Improved Trip, the reflex save (totally ignored), or the penalty for not being proficient with the exotic weapon.

 

[Shin Okada]

IMHO your experience is not coming from ritiiks. Instead it is coming mainly from trips and other special attack rules. Specifically, special size modifiers.

That is one of few rules I don't like in 3.0e/3.5e. Special attacks favor bigger monsters too much. +4 bonus per size category is too big. Because of those rules, small races are now significantly disadvantageous in melee combats. And while trips, grappling and such are not trustworthy maneuver for typical medium-sized PCs, often nearly automatic success for bigger monsters.

In 3.5e, the most popular method for PCs to avoid automatic loss is to become bigger, via enlarge person spell and such.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

IME, it all depends upon the special attack form.

As far as defenses go, the most popular defense against grapples is, IME, Close Quarters Fighting. At mid levels, it is supplemented by the freedom of movement spell, and at high levels, rings of free action are pretty much a given for that reason. The Improved Grapple feat is also a precaution that a number of characters (mostly multiclassed monks) take against being grappled and it provides the added bonus of a new attack form that will often be advantageous.

Against trips, there are fewer defenses (one of the problems with the mechanic--there aren't any feats or abilities or even items other than belts of strength, gloves of dex, and steadfast boots that make you better at resisting them). I've seen one or two PCs take prone fighting, but the prerequisite Dexterity makes it difficult for tank fighters to qualify and the prerequisite feat makes the opportunity cost too high for most rogue/finesse fighters. I've yet to see a PC pop a potion of enlarge person to better resist trips (though I frequently see PCs drink one to be better at trips and grapples). I know a couple PCs that wear steadfast boots to avoid trips and more that would like to (but haven't found any).

As far as my experience with the Ritiil goes, you're correct that it's experience with Improved Trip that makes me think it's probably as good as Improved Trip, not experience with the Ritiil. But, that experience has frequently been: "Gee, I wish his character would just hit the enemy for damage instead of wasting his time on all this tripping garbage; it's cutting his damage in half." With a Ritiil, the character wouldn't need to cut his damage in order to trip. And the math seems to indicate that the Ritiil is a pretty good deal. (And it's even better if it is ruled to grant the free Improved Trip attack on a successful trip--I wouldn't allow it and the 3.0 Knockdown FAQ indicates that Skip wouldn't have allowed it, but who knows what Andy, the 3.5 FAQ, and a DM selected at random would rule?)

 

[Stormrunner]

I disagree. In fact, I don't agree with most (if any) of your examples because you are not taking into account the touch AC vs full AC, the penalties for being prone, the bonus for having Improved Trip, the reflex save (totally ignored), or the penalty for not being proficient with the exotic weapon.

Well, let's take a look at some stats then.
Base ogre has a STR of 21, spellwarped template adds +4 for a total of 25. ForceUser seems to have rounded this up to 26 - a valid tweak, but it does give the ogres a +1 to hit compared to the "standard vanilla" ogre. With the spellwarped template, the ogres are CR 5 apiece instead of CR 3, so three of them should be EL 8 - nominally about average for a party of 5 7th-level PCs. The lack of damage-from-a-distance is what really hurt the party - closing to melee range is usually a Bad Idea against creatures of the Giant type. The ritiik is a two-handed melee weapon, so the ogres get extra STR bonus to damage. A Medium ritiik does 1d8, so a Large one would do 2d6, plus 1.5x STR (1.5x13=19), for an average of 26 damage per hit. That's a DC 36 Reflex save to avoid being tripped: the PC would need a Reflex save bonus of +17 or better, extremely difficult at 7th level, to save on anything other than a nat20. It also means it would only take 3-4 hits to down the average 7th-level fighter.

For starters, I'll assume the ogres swapped their standard Weapon Focus feat for Exotic Weapon:Ritiik but didn't swap Toughness for Improved Trip (hey, they're ogres: "Me tough. Tough good." OTOH, the spellwarped template does increase their INT as well... but if they normally use the weapons vs seals and walruses, which aren't really trippable, even smart ogres might not bother.)
Ogre's STR: 26 DEX: 10 CON:19 HP: 4d8+19 (37 hp)
Ogre's AC: 10+5(natural)+3(hide armor)-1(size)=17, touch 10
Ogre's attack: +3 BAB, +8 STR, -1 size = +10
Ogre's Trip bonus: +8 STR, +4 size = +12

We'll take the NPC Fighter from the DMG and improve his equipment to PC levels (19,000 gp instead of 7,200). +2 armor, +2 shield, and +2 weapon adds up to 16,000. We'll add a ring of protection +1 (2,000 gp), and assume the remaining 1,000 is miscellaneous equipment.

Fighter's STR: 16 DEX: 13 CON: 14 HP: 10+6d10+14 (57 hp)
Fighter's AC: 10+10(+2 full plate)+4(+2 heavy shield)+1(DEX)+1(ring) = 26
touch AC = 10+1(DEX)+1(ring)= 12
Fighter's attack: +7/+2 BAB, +3 STR, +2 weapon = +12/+7
Fighter's Trip bonus: +3 STR

Note that in a straight-up slugfest, the ogres have only 2/3 as many HP, an AC significantly lower, and are outnumbered 2 to 1. The party can be forgiven for expecting them to be "chumps".

On with the show:

Using the Ritiik: the ogre makes a standard attack, if he hits the target has to make a Reflex save, if the save fails the ogre can make a free Trip attempt. If that succeeds he can make an AoO when the target tries to stand. I'm assuming here that the ogre's AoO gets the +4 for a prone target but cannot re-trip. I'm also assuming that natural rolls of 1 or 20 on the Trip rolls do NOT auto-fail or -succeed respectively: if they do, the ogre's chances actually go down (if the base chance is better than 50%, the penalty for the auto-fails outweighs the benefit of the auto-successes).
Chance the ogre's attack hits: +10 attack vs AC 26 needs a 16 or better, = 25%
Chance fighter fails his Reflex save: 95% (only makes it on a nat20)
Ogre's chance to Trip: 86%
(The math gets hairy, so I used the brute force method. I made an Excel spreadsheet with a 20x20 grid, numbered 1 through 20 across the top (the ogre's roll) and down the side (the fighter's roll). I then filled each cell in the grid with a formula: IF(OR(FRoll+Fbonus<Oroll+Obonus, AND(Froll=Oroll,Fbonus<Obonus)),1,0)
that is to say, IF the Fighter's d20 roll + his Trip bonus is less than the Ogre's roll + Trip bonus, OR the two results are equal but the Ogre has a bigger bonus, then put a 1 in the cell, otherwise put a 0. Adding up the number of 1's in the grid and dividing by 400 (the total # of 1's and 0's in the grid) gives the percent chance the ogre succeeds on the trip. This formula doesn't account for the rare case when both the roll results AND the bonuses of both contestants are equal (it gets recursive), but that won't happen in this scenario. Note that even with the massive disparity in Trip bonuses, the fighter still has a 14% chance (about 1 in 7) of resisting the Trip.
Chance the ogre's AoO hits: 45% (the base attack chance, +20% for a prone target)

Total chance to successfully trip, per attack: 25% * 95% * 86% = 0.20425, or a hair better than 20%. *45% = 9.19125% chance of scoring an extra hit from the AoO. Average damage output per round = chance of initial hit + chance of AoO = 34%

If the fighter was using a greatsword, no shield but that frees up enough gp to buy Gauntlets of Ogre Power for a +2 to STR. Fighter's AC becomes 22, Trip bonus becomes +4.
The ogre's chance to trip then becomes 45% * 95% * 84% = 0.3591 (36%), chance of successful AoO becomes 23.3415%, average damage output = 68%


Now, let's look at the case of the ogre who takes Improved Trip instead of Exotic Weapon, and uses a non-exotic tripping weapon (probably a flail). This shortens his reach to 10', but gives him a +4 on Trip attempts.

Using the flail: The ogre makes a touch attack. If this is successful he makes a Trip attempt. If the Trip is successful he can make a free attack against his now-prone opponent, and may get an AoO when the opponent stands, as above.

Chance touch attack hits: +10 attack vs AC 12 = 2 or better, 95% chance.
Chance of trip succeeding: 95%
Chance follow-up strike hits: +14 vs AC 26, 12 or better, 45%
Chance AoO hits: trip success * same chance to hit as follow-up

Total chance to trip, per attack: 95% * 95% = .9025 (90%). Chance of successful AoO = .9025 * 45% = .406125, about 40%
Damage output: trip chance * follow-up chance, + AoO chance: 90.25% * 45%, + 40% = .81225, approx 81%.

Versus the gauntlets-and-greatsword fighter, total chance to trip is 95% * 93% = .8835 (88%), follow-up succeeds at 65%, damage output is .8835 * 65% + .574 = 1.149

Compare this to just taking Weapon Focus and hacking away: damage output = chance to hit = 0.30 (0.50 vs the greatsword fighter).


Conclusion:
Using the ritiik is better than Weapon Focus: damage output is slightly higher and there's a decent chance of preventing the foe from closing. However, the ritiik is significantly WORSE than going the Improved Trip route, in all aspects other than reach. And, at least in this case, ImTrip isn't "halving his damage output", it's more than doubling it.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

(the spellwarped penguin swarm didn't get anyone, sigh).

There truly is no justice in this world.