D&D 5E Fudging: DM vs player preferences

Has it been discussed exactly what's being fudged?

In the other two threads, indeed it is. And the DMs that do fudge have an extremely wide variance on the types of rolls or numbers they might fudge, the amount of times or numbers of fights they might do it in, and a wide array of results and/or reasons for doing so.
 

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In the other two threads, indeed it is. And the DMs that do fudge have an extremely wide variance on the types of rolls or numbers they might fudge, the amount of times or numbers of fights they might do it in, and a wide array of results and/or reasons for doing so.

Thanks! So what I'm interested in, as a fudging DM, is do the players (in general) have differing feelings toward the types of fudging? How much of the opinions are a fear of being fudged against vs. fudged for? With all the things a DM can do, just asking yes/no, is a pretty broad brush.
 

Take a look at the other threads and you'll see all manner of opinions on the subject. Some more... strident... than others. ;)
 

Well, sure... if you feel need to add on that completely over-the-top addendum in order to justify changing 'would allow fudging' to 'never wants fudging ever'... sure, I can understand you.

I, of course would rather just take the poll for its word. 55% of the respondents would accept fudging of some type at some point. Not always... not necessarily in all types of situations... but MOST players accept it. ;)

over-the-top? What exactly do you think is going to be fudged? Maybe Ranthalan is right above, we need to define what is being fudged here because I don't think that has been established clearly. A Dm changing a miss from a monster into a hit is exactly what fudging essentially represents. Or auto save vs an effect for example. What else is there that the DM can secretly change from behind the screen outside of monster attack rolls, damage rolls, save vs effects, changing of DC's and the like? Any of those when honestly presented will result in a negative response. "I'm going to auto save vs the effect of the spell you just took your full turn to cast.".. "I'm going to make you fail the skill check you just rolled".. "I missed my attack but I'm going to say it hit anyway".

Explain what you think fudging is and why my simple example of changing an attack missing into a hit from a monster is over-the-top?
 

I only have one comment to make in this thread, and it is in regards to this statement:
...this result to me suggests that many people are there for the fun of the story, as opposed to wanting to strictly follow a ruleset...
Being anti-fudging does not inherently mean not being for the fun of the story, nor does it inherently mean wanting to strictly follow a ruleset.

I am anti-fudging (having answered both polls "No, never", and knowing that my current group of 10 players would answer the same).

I am there for the story, and not interested in strictly following any rules other than what my players and I have decided are the rules we feel like following - I just think that a DM should remove any undesired results from a die roll before rolling (i.e. if I think a wandering druid might be fun right now, but a wandering group of monsters wouldn't be, I'm not going to roll on the encounter table at all. I'm going to have a druid be encountered - I'm against a DM in the same situation rolling on the encounter table, getting a result of wandering monsters, and saying that a druid is encountered instead).
 

I think DMs and players have a distinctly different perspective on what the purpose of fudging is for. It seems to me that DMs who fudge think they are doing so in the best interests of The Game(tm). The best interests of The Game may or may not be in the best interests of The Players. It may be to create a certain atmosphere, it may be to cause a specific effect to come about, to avoid a Lucky Roll turning weeks of planning on its head or an Unlucky Roll causing the game to grind to a halt. The Game is more than just The Players in tonight's session. It's the overarching story, the events of the world and yes, tonight's session.

When a DM engages in Good Fudging, that is, fudging that advances the story in a new and interesting direction, fudging that is beneficial to the players or fudging that just generally creates good gameplay, I think players generally don't care. They're either unaware, or if they are aware, agree that it all worked out for the best and we all had fun, therefore it's excusable. I think players tend to forget, or overlook these moments, or even be completely ignorant to them, which in turn leads to the same problem the CIA has, we never know about their successes because a successful secret operation creates an outcome that the generally beneficial for the majority of interested parties.

However, when a DM engages in Bad Fudging, that is, does something that is overtly against the players, or changes the way something they were familiar with had worked before, players take notice and of course: complain. When a "near hit" becomes a confirmed critical, when the enemy escapes their grasp because suddenly their grapple check is 3 points higher than it has ever been before, these cause "problems". Problems is in quotation marks because these things may still benefit the overall story and setting of the game, but they create immediate problems for the players RIGHT NOW. Like most human beings, players are no less short-sighted than the rest of us and problems RIGHT NOW seem much larger and troublesome than certain unspecified benefits down the road. Players may go home disgruntled for the night and write angry complaints on a Message Board, going on about how the DM fudged and how it ruined their game and so on, completely forgetting the night before when the DM fudged and everyone liked it.

Like all humans, DMs also make mistakes. Sometimes fudging can correct those mistakes, sometimes it can exacerbate them. A DM isn't going to get every situation perfectly right and sometimes a well-planned event could become a cakewalk or a TPK and both of those situations could lead to a ruined campaign. The Big Bad goes down a little too easy, the party gets walloped a little too fast, I think every DM has experienced these situations. Sometimes a clever DM (or maybe just a forgetful one) has left a couple of holes open in the situation that could allow for an Expedient Solution, but sometimes there isn't and thus, fudging happens! A quick slip of a roll being one point higher to avoid a grapple that would have otherwise meant certain death so the Big Bad can run away and live to fight another day! Perhaps a downgrade from a confirmed crit into a regular hit so that Bob the Barbarian, who is quite loved by all, isn't transformed into a ghoulish horror that will proceed to destroy the party; thus allowing them a brief moment to retreat.

In short, I feel DMs favor fudging because they see the big picture. Players dislike fudging because they don't.
 
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I think it would be interesting to rephrase the original poll. Instead of asking if a player wants the dm to fudge, I'd rather see the results of a poll like this:

Do you mind if your DM fudges to keep the game moving and to enhance the story?

It seems like a trust issue to me.

If players trust the DM and enjoy the game experience, they'll be more likely to accept DM fudging if it happens.

On the other hand, for many players, knowing that the DM will fudge, cheapens the experience because they feel that they have less control.

I can definitely see both sides of the issue.

Personally, I'd enjoy playing with a DM that could fudge unobtrusively when it makes the game more interesting (or saves a PC from a stupid or undeserving death).

As a DM, I fudge very little, especially because all of my games are run on Fantasy Grounds and the encounters are pre-set. The urge to fudge often comes when I DM 2-3 PC parties and I don't adjust an adventure for less PCs. Likewise, the urge to fudge is also stronger when I DM for 6-7 PCs and the encounters/situations are not scaled for such a large party. I guess, it is more like making adjustments on the fly.
 


Do you mind if your DM fudges to keep the game moving and to enhance the story?

It seems like a trust issue to me.
I think the real issue is that players and DM can not read each others minds, so "enhance the story" is an inherently subjective thing - meaning that for a particular instance of fudging, only what the DM subjectively thinks of as an enhancement is taken into account and player opinion might differ (unless, of course, the DM actually asks the players for input before changing something - but that's not the kind of fudging that anyone's been talking about thus far).

And when it comes to "move the story along" fudging, most of that comes down to situations like the DM coming up with what they thought would be a particular sort of challenge and they were incorrect because they didn't account for character ability or the choices that a player might make, and I have a personal opinion that to fudge in those situations doesn't actually help the DM better their DMing, while actually admitting the mistake to the players and working together to move past it does.
 


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