Full attack and Improved Grapple

[Olorin]

No, I didn't leave that out. Go back and read my post again, it's in there.

Well, you paraphrased. Obviously we interpret that section differently.

Nope, not the way it works.

If you have Improved Grab, you can make iterative Grapple checks as determined by your BAB, and each successful grapple check will do the full damage listed for the attack that established the grapple, without any -4 penalty. (If you have Constrict as well as Improved Grab, you do natural weapon damage plus Constrict damage. Kind of like a PC using Armor Spikes in a grapple.)

That's the whole point of this and other threads isn't it? The problem here is the regular grapple rules are obviously aimed at characters, who don't normally have natural weapons and always use iterative attacks to determine the number of grapple actions they can take. But creatures with natural weapons don't follow those rules, hence the confusion. It all comes down to if a creature starts a grapple, it can sometimes have many more grapple actions than it normally would natural attacks (see the Tarrasque or anything else with an insane BAB), or less grapple actions than natural attacks (see Brown Bear), neither of which seem right. But that may just be my feeling. Include Improved Grab, and it just gets better. The rules just aren't there to support any definite conclusion, so we're left with interpretation.

If you want to attack with your other natural weapons, you need to make a -20 on your grapple checks, and give up the attacks with the natural weapon used to grab them. Then you can use your other natural weapons to make attacks as normal, without any penalty. You also do not lose your Dex bonus to AC against other opponents.

Yes, if you want to be free to attack other targets. Otherwise you "conduct the grapple normally" which leads us back to what that really means.

If you do not have Improved Grab, and you want to use your Natural Weapon damage instead of just unarmed damage for a creature your size, you would need to use the "Attack Opponent" option and take the -4 on your attack rolls, and limited to iterative attacks instead of your full natural weapon attack sequence. Basically, creatures without Improved Grab aren't really built to grapple very well.

Well if I'm understanding you correctly, the only real difference (once the grapple is started) is creatures with IG can ignore the -4 penalty on their grapple checks, which admittedly is good. But either way they get grapple actions based off BAB, not natural weapon attacks, which just rubs me the wrong way.

 

[Caliban]

Well if I'm understanding you correctly, the only real difference (once the grapple is started) is creatures with IG can ignore the -4 penalty on their grapple checks, which admittedly is good. But either way they get grapple actions based off BAB, not natural weapon attacks, which just rubs me the wrong way.

It actually makes a kind of sense. Grappling is different than an unarmed attack and thus it would be different from a natural weapon attack. It's based more on skill than just having a lot of natural weapons. BAB represents basic fighting skill. Some creatures are naturally better at grappling than others. Those are the creatures with abilities like Improved Grab, Constrict, Rake, Swallow Whole, etc.

Most animals will find it more advantageous to break out of a grapple and use their natural attack mode. That seems to make sense, since grappling tends to require something to grab and hold your opponent with, and a lot of creatures just have natural weapons that tear and slash, not hold. Those that do, tend to have improved grab.

The really nasty creatures are the ones with Improved Grab and Constrict. Most PC's can't handle that kind of punishment for more than a couple of rounds.

 

[Kershek]

I'm still confused as to how a brown bear would start an improved grab, then handle an entire turn while grappling. Can someone explain this setup with an example including actual rolls?

 

[Brekki]

Something else to thing about is, that for the creatures that seem disadvantaged in a grapple ... they can use their improved grab ability at -20 ... they won't succeed often, but it's free with every melee attack that hits, so why just don't try it every time.

 

[Darklone]

Would a monster that uses the -20 penalty to grapple with only one limb be considered grappled if it loses the grapple check against a PC?
Better:
Can someone who's only grappling e.g. with one arm of a multiarmed giant thing (that takes a -20 on it's check) be able to pin the whole creature if it wins it's own grapple check?

 

[Brekki]

According to PH grappling they can ... another errata on the way ?

But ... can anyone actually find the -20 rule in the 3.5 core books ?

 

[Olorin]

Would a monster that uses the -20 penalty to grapple with only one limb be considered grappled if it loses the grapple check against a PC?

No, taking the -20 penalty allows it to act as if it was not engaged in a grapple, succeed or fail.

Better:
Can someone who's only grappling e.g. with one arm of a multiarmed giant thing (that takes a -20 on it's check) be able to pin the whole creature if it wins it's own grapple check?

Yes... the grapple is conducted normally if the creature takes the -20. It can try to pin, damage, etc. If the giant loses the grapple check, it just fails at whatever grapple action it was attempting (or if it had Improved Grab, fails to do natural weapon damage). The person the giant has grappled remains grappled. On the person's action he can try to escape the grapple and the giant opposes taking the -20. The -20 penalty just allows it to use its other natural weapons to threaten an area, attack other targets, etc.

 

[Olorin]

According to PH grappling they can ... another errata on the way ?

But ... can anyone actually find the -20 rule in the 3.5 core books ?

Yes, it's in the Monster Manual glossary under Improved Grab. I'd give you a page number but I don't have my books with me.

 

[Darklone]

So it's easier for you to pin a giant for example when he's only grappling you with one hand...

"Hah, yield or I'll twist your thumb again!"

 

[Nail]

This is so screwed up. I second the request for someone to work through an actual example. Say a Dire Bear vs. a couple of fighter/rogues.