Fun with heresy, or What's the Value of Micromanager Gods?

[Mallus]

The Sigil posted the following in shilsen's popular naughty paladin thread...

The priests of his order do not represent the legitimate authority of a deity (possible, but checking on this would be as simple as checking on whether or not they receive clerical empowerment).

...and I thought this point deserved a thread thread of its own.

Its a perfectly valid underlying assumption: the gods monitor their faithful and punish clerics who deviate from core doctrine. But take it too far, and your campaign world loses an enormous amount of potential conflict. Deviation from core doctrine on the large scale becomes impossible. God flips a switch and the heretical movement ends (who are you going to follow, the side that can heal and smite their foes with holy fire, or the side that just talks a good game...). Sectarian wars become impossible. Plotlines involving Church reform become impossible. How can the PC's get involved in fixing a corrupt and straying Church if God already did the work for them?

The heart of a good game is conflict, and good gameworld design involves creating interesting conflicts in which players get to make meaningful choices. That's why I like the occassional struggle of Good vs. Good, where the ultimate moral position isn't immediately known to the players, if it ever is. It gives them something to decide. There's not much moral debate on whether or not to fight the Host from Hell. But when the Archbishop orders you to torch the village of heretics the party happened to grow up in, where they know the miller, and the abbot (who oddly still works a minor miracle or two), and they're all kind, loving folk, now that's a different story...

Take a look a SepulchraveII's fantastic Wyre Story Hours. How much of that would be gone if his LG creator god had simply begun switching off his followers powers? Hell, his paladin protagonist fell in love with a succubus and later started a torid affair with a quasi-Buddhist ultrademon (I'm being so reductive...), (mostly) in the name of theological inquiry...

Imagine how dull European history would have been if, after Martin Luther tacked his 95 Theses to the Castle Church door, the priest inside Flame Struck him... and Luther found out God had deactivated his Protection from Fire...

As a DM, I'm in it for the conflict. For the drama. And micromanager gods just don't serve that end. Anyone in favor of them? Is there something I'm missing? Opinions?

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

I hear ya, loud and clear. I play the gods of my campaign fairly far removed from day-to-day operations of their church. They don't tally their worshippers' heresies and so on - that's what they have underlings and priests for in the first place.

 

[Cerubus Dark]

As a DM, I'm in it for the conflict. For the drama. And micromanager gods just don't serve that end. Anyone in favor of them? Is there something I'm missing? Opinions?

"God is busy, may I help you?"

Keep in mind Gods have their own petty wars to play out among themselves. Thus the Solars and Planars. Now what if a few of them started to interput the will of their masters diffrently, that could lead to divisions of faith.

 

[eris404]

I can see the value in both types of gods, though. A more strict (i.e. "lawful") god might keep tabs on his followers and punish them for straying, while gods of mystery cults, aloof gods, gods of creativity, etc. might be less inclined to "micromanage." I think it would be interesting to see how far a follower could push the boundaries in either case and still be considered a follower in good standing.

Another thought. Maybe the cutting off of powers doesn't come directly from the god, but from his earthly church. So, lets say you have two sects who worship the same god, but in different ways. Each believes itself to be the True Church while the other is the heretic and has very strict laws about conduct and beliefs. When a member makes a transgression (and looses clerical spells or other divinely-given class abilities), he believes it is his god punishing him. Instead, what's really happening is that he has broken a magical oath he gave at 1st level when he joined the church, which then causes the ability loss.

 

[shilsen]

I agree about that not having micromanager gods potentially adds a lot more conflict. Eberron's take on gods and worship is a perfect example of that approach.

Now what would be interesting is if you had micromanager gods who weren't consistent. The priests of sect A and sect B both get spells from the same deity. And when the high priest of sect A casts a commune and asks if their god thinks they are right, the answer is "Yes". And right then the high priest of sect B is doing the same and getting the same answer. Is their deity messing with them? Is one of them unknowingly worshipping a demon? Did someone get a cross-connection on the commune line? So many possibilities.

 

[Zappo]

Maybe a rival god is stealthily providing spells to the heretics, unknown to both themselves and the "true followers".

Or, maybe the god is giving spells to everyone because they are actually both valid ways of worshipping him.

Divination spells are killers for heresies, too. In theory, how can you have an heresy when you can actually go and ask God what the right way is?

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

And one more thing - I think they've gone away from this in 3E/3.5, but in olden editions, clerics received their spells through intermediaries - 1st & 2nd level spells came through devotion (and thus you could worship a non-existant god and still get 2nd level spells, in theory), 3rd through 5th came from a minor servant, etc. Only the very highest spells came directly from your god.

Therefore, if some of the gods solars were in disagreement, they might still grant what spells they could to those following their path.

Another idea is that if the god in question has a strong enemy, that enemy might start granting spells to "fallen" clerics. Sort of a "getting your power from the devil, not god" situation.

Anything that can be done to throw a little ambiguity on the scenario leads to more fun gaming, IMO.

 

[Cerubus Dark]

When a member makes a transgression (and looses clerical spells or other divinely-given class abilities), he believes it is his god punishing him. Instead, what's really happening is that he has broken a magical oath he gave at 1st level when he joined the church, which then causes the ability loss.

This idea has been *taken*

 

[Insight]

From a cosmological point of view (and that's what we're talking about here), you have to find out when you begin your campaign whether your deities are hand-on or hands-off. If you are doing a homebrew campaign, you (as the setting creator) must decide whether or not the deities take an active hand in the daily lives of mortals (even to the extent that deities may or may not choose certain mortals to be interested in). If you are running a published setting, it behooves you to research to discover the deities' attitudes in regards to mortal affairs.

Let's assume for the moment that you have a homebrew, because this is pretty much a moot point in a published setting unless you choose to modify it. In most campaigns, deities are either hands-on or hands-off, and this is pretty much a decision made at the cosmological level (in other words, all deities abide by this decision). As the setting creator, you must decide how you want the deities to react to mortals' actions, and this is directly related to whether they are hands-on or hands-off.

In a hands-on situation, your deity may choose to harshly punish individual transgressors, or perhaps give the transgressor a second (or third, fourth) chance. This would be based on the deity's personality, portfolio, history of the individual, etc. In a hands-off situation, the deity might make a blanket decision that anyone who transgresses against him/her will be punished through (x), and whatever that is will happen to anyone who transgresses. This could be a flame strike, loss of spells, a curse, whatever.

Both hands-on and hands-off deities have their place, and it really depends on your campaign setting as to which type you wish to have. As a rule of thumb, if you want your PCs to be able to interact with deities (or perhaps their avatars), use the hands-on approach. Otherwise, go with the hands-off method. The hands-off method works well with druids, characters who follow philosophies or forces, and other non-deity sources of divine power.

Now if you choose to use the hands-on approach, you (as the DM) must adjudicate how much involvement there will be on the deity's side. He/she might send direct aid, such as a representative to help in combat or other situations. The deity might aid by giving bonuses to die rolls, or a beneficial magic item or perhaps even a permanent ability. The deity could punish transgressors in the opposite way (sending a representative to stop the PCs, giving penalties to die rolls, etc). But you must decide how often this sort of things happens, and what sort of actions/goals get the deities' attention. Unfortunately, there is no hard and fast rule for this; it's something each individual DM must decide. The good news is that, if you are consistent with the deities' reactions to PC behavior, the players can hardly complain when they are on the business end of a flame strike from above or a peeved avatar who appears out of nowhere.

In my world view, deities don't ever 'micro-manage'. They do not involve themselves in most mortal matters. Thus, the problems you describe would never happen. Deities only step in when issues central to their goals are threatened. In the final analysis, it's a matter of degrees, and how far you want deities to push in your game.

 

[Mallus]

Divination spells are killers for heresies, too. In theory, how can you have an heresy when you can actually go and ask God what the right way is?

They sure are... however, some possibilities...

1) The god's just fickle. Maybe he's Greek. Or secretly a woman.

2) The god's just fundamentally ineffable, even with a Commune spell. What the communing priest hears, in part, is what he already believes. It's all that the can understand.

3) Some other forces have disrupted the Celestial Switchboard. There's a War in Heaven, or perhaps a fight over long-distance carries...