GAHH!! Time to take a break from 3.5

[Steel_Wind]

Let me try explain myself better. When I first starting reading about 4e it sound like that was the direction 4e was headed. Now only time will tell, but I'm still betting that we will see more rolemaster influence on DnD. I just think it will end up being in the area of skills and magic system.

Well, as I said, there appears to be a move affoot to make the game playable with less "iconics" in the party. Part of that is making all character more skilled, generally, especailly at higher level.

Rolemaster's skills are based upon ranks and stat bonuses and profession bonuses added in on a per level basis. I think we will see exactly that in 4E. So if that's your prediction - I'm with you.

Most people who are unfamiliar with RM don't comment on that element of its design as one of the hallmarks of the system. It's all about critical and weapon and spell charts to those who familiarity with it is only in passing.

I will have to agree here that we will never see this in DnD. Yes this is hard to do without the players helping.

Oh I would disagree there. Never is far too big a word for me.

When the game is assumed to be moderated during play with a computer (and we are only one edition, maximum TWO without that technological assumption permeating the rules throughout), then all bets are off in terms of complexity.

RM would be laughably easy to play and run with computer moderated combat. The squawking about "all those charts to look up and addition and subtractins at the table to do" vanish into the ether when it is all hidden by a button that says "roll" and a read out that says "current hit points and status".

 

[ivocaliban]

You see, I've come to the point where I have decided I got to put 3.5 down for a bit. Worse, I've also come to the point where I think that the thing which is bugging the crap out of me about 3.5 is going to get WAY WORSE in 4E, not better.

I have to agree with this point, particularly in regards to the latter. It's been said many times that 4E is looking more and more like an MMORPG than what we're familiar with in pen-and-paper gaming. Certainly this is true to an extent in 3.0/3.5E as well, but the game as a whole seems to be evolving even further in that direction. D&D 4E seems as if it will be more dependent on "roles" and "maximizing" those roles than ever before. Everything reduced to equations for success, not neccessarily pleasure or enjoyment.

As someone who played World of Warcraft for a year or so I can tell you that it all boils down to a sort of dull assignment of duties and the right accumulation of gear. A group eventually ends up going through the motions in an uninspiring mechanical way that is both repetitive and without room for any improvisation or flavor. You don't play a role so much as input the correct formula for success. It all boils down to mathematics in the end and all the fantasy is just so much window-dressing.

I can deal with this in 3.0/3.5Ee because while it does feel like a video game in certain ways, it still feels like an RPG (say Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic)...not an MMORPG (such as WoW). As others have said you can allow or disallow certain things which can make 3.0/3.5Ee feel much less like a video game. The choice to put no limitations whatsoever on the RAW will without fail lead players to exploit whatever openings they can find.

That said, I can understand your desire to move way from D&D as it now stands. I'm going to stick with 3.5E for the forseeable future, but I, too, could use a break from the game. Possibly some Legend of the Five Rings or Call of Cthulhu will be just the thing to take my mind off the whole 4E movement.

Rant on!

 

[cougent]

Steel_Wind, BRAVO!
Thanks for putting my thoughts into words.

Although I did go a different direction than you, I had the same experience. I house ruled the daylights out of the abundant magic, death is an inconvenience, and I need a bigger bag of holding for all my treasure style of 3E (3.5 inclusive).

Did my players like it? Not at first. Did I loose any and end up rolling dice alone, nope, in fact I always have more people wanting to play than I can handle. 2 of my players were DM's of other groups and took much of my harsh reality style back to their games as well.

To the naysayers I always ask, "Do really enjoy playing video games in GOD mode?" What fun is no challenge? My players know that just because they just used up every bit of power they have does not mean they are out of danger, and they have become excellent players because of it. They now challenge each other on resource management and planning combat and less reliance on magic items. They do much of my dirty work for me, and they love it! So either I just have an amazing group of players, or I am an amazing DM, or having challenges in the game is just the best policy.

 

[HelloChristian]

Somewhere at about 9th-10th level, the game upped its power level to Super-Heroes Without Capes. And it was about then I just plain started getting crabby about the whole damn thing.

Wow. That's a pretty succinct way to put it. You also make the point that even if you don't want to play that way, the game start to become unbalanced if you opt for a "low-power" style of campaign.

I love D&D, but I also like GURPS. When a bad guy points a heavy crossbow at your character, it means something, no matter how many CP that character has.

 

[Shortman McLeod]

Steel Wind, I just wanted to pat you on the back and let you know that YOU ARE NOT ALONE. I reached the same point you're at about ten months or so ago. Total burnout, on both the complexity of 3.5 (which I don't think bugged you, tho) and the incredibly high power-level (especially how rapid advancement is assumed in the system and CERTAINLY assumed in the D&D 3.5 "player culture").

I haven't touched an RPG for about ten months; lately I'm scratching my itch with video games and board games (Arkham Horror--my Lord, what an amazing game).

Unlike you, I'm not convinced that 4e will necessarily be more of the same problem, but I agree that it doesn't look incredibly hopeful, either. :\

 

[SavageRobby]

Wow, I'm amazed the thread has gotten this far with such positivity. Nicely done.


I'm with you. We switched to Savage Worlds a few years ago, and are now experimenting with Castles & Crusades, for many of the reasons you listed (and others you didn't). And I don't see 4x fixing those issues at all, and likely it will make them worse.

That said, Rolemaster, eh? I haven't read the full text of RM in probably close to 20 years, although I purchased Spell Law recently to steal ideas from. Didn't they release a new, streamlined version recently?

 

[Steel_Wind]

That said, Rolemaster, eh? I haven't read the full text of RM in probably close to 20 years, although I purchased Spell Law recently to steal ideas from. Didn't they release a new, streamlined version recently?

Yes, there is a Rolemaster Express - wihch is essentially the role previously filled by MERP prior to 1998 and the loss of the Middle Earth license.

And there is HARP, which is an evolution of RM - so much so that it's not really RM anymore - but it certainly shares elements of it.

I'm leaning to a house rule Rolemaster 2e though. Essentially, it will be Rolemaster 3.5, if you will.

Essentially, the entire flow of a combat round in 3.5 is maintained and plopped holus bolus into RM. Full round action, std action, initiative, etc - take it out of D20 3.5 and transplant it in in more or less straight into RM2 in unmodified form. We retain the concept of Class I, II and III spells in RM as well - so that means higher level spells take longer to cast - or you risk an Extraordinary Spell Failure if you are casting the spell quicker.

This, in effect, slow down the rate at which spell are cast in the game initially - or makes rapid casting in one round a more dangerous affair. (see the role tac cheats play noted above)

What would persist from RM2 is the essential combat resolution mechanic, criticals, spells and monster and character stats.

Add in the tactical cheat concepts to allow the players to re-rolls of their own rolls - or my rolls that directly affect them in combat to take the edge off the lethality a wee bit - and proceed from there.

This probably sounds a little bizarre to a lot of the usual "I hate 3.5!!!" threads that appear here. Most of those complaints arise out of AOOs and perceived complexity in the game. But as noted in my initial rant, that's not my complaint at all.

My complaint is mainly with the power structure, lack of consequences and the central role that magic items play in 3.5. Magic items as the meat of a character, as opposed to the icing-on-the-cake role that items play in earlier editions of the game (and virtually any other FRPG system).

Combat tracking as a result of stuns, bleeding and negatives inflicted in combat or as a result of hit point status is more fiddly in RM2 combat, but it's all good if you are used to it and the players are too and assist in note taking during play.

Fact is, we play that way already in 3.5, actually. It's an old habit developed during our RM days and we never stopped as we played D&D 3.xx. Our combats pretty much fly by under RM rules in contrast to the experience of most groups.

I don't anticipate that much of a change from current combat flow. A little more drag sure - but the emphasis is on far more spectacular results as they happen.

The one main impact of Rolemaster combat is that numbers of foes matter far more in RM than they do in D&D 3.5.

Upping the power level of a monster in an encounter is not nearly as important as upping the number of the foes attacking. That's the nature of the critical system. Sheer numbers of foes matter a helluva lot more.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

Essentially, the entire flow of a combat round in 3.5 is maintained and plopped holus bolus into RM.I don't anticipate that much of a change from current combat flow.

I could see that working pretty well. I've always thought that 3E had a lot in common with RM.

 

[Forrester]

Unknown Armies . . .

I know it's the wrong genre, but you really need to look into Unknown Armies.

Full title: "Unknown Armies: A Roleplaying Game of Power and Consequences"

Good, good stuff.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

[rant]

Alright. Yes. This is a rant.

It's not a rant AT someone or even AT a particular rule, per se.

It's a rant about the whole damn thing we profess to love here.

You see, I've come to the point where I have decided I got to put 3.5 down for a bit. Worse, I've also come to the point where I think that the thing which is bugging the crap out of me about 3.5 is going to get WAY WORSE in 4E, not better.

And as a consequence, I've come to the realization maybe I'm just a dinosaur.

The problem is that I have finally reached that point in my current campaign where boredom, burnout and high level tedium are all coming together in a Perfect Storm: and I realized that I need a break.

Not just from my current campaign (though that too) - I need a break from D&D 3.5.

The problem? The RAW is just too damn video gamey. And seeing as I happen to be professionally involved in making licensed D&D computer game adventures in the recent past - that's saying something.

The RAW assumes a lot of things that I knew long ago (like, 25 years ago) that I didn't like. But it had been so long away from it, it was an imperfect memory. Moreover, it was one without emotional immediacy.

The problem? A game system DESIGNED so that there are No friggin consequences. The party fightsand, afterwards? It heals to max for a pittance of inconvenience. I kill a character - they raise him or her in an instant. They run out of big gun spells? They rope trick and rest in perfect safety.

My RAW game has become like stock NWN1. The party is always at max, fights have no consequences, death is a temporary game state - not an event, and it's all one big hack n slash KILL HIM AND TAKE HIS STUFF AS QUICK AS YOU CAN.

The party gets treasure - and devises even more items to build or buy that maximizes their munchkinhood. They are DRIPPING with magic in my Age of Worms campaign. They are dripping with items like it was one of my Picnics to the Lower Planes Campaigns I ran 26 years ago in high school.

And there was a REASON I didn't run campaign like that again for 20+ years. And while I remembered the reason I hated them - it took me until 2/3rds of the way through the Age of Worms AP to internalize it again as a value:

I hate high power games. I really do. Most of all, I hate high power games without consequences.

And the RAW - that's what they are all about: no consequences.

Another encounter. More XP, More treasure. Level up. Quick!! More feats - more spells, More power. FASTER damn it. More!!! We need to LEVEL FASTER!!!!

Injured? Cure Light wounds wand after combat. BAMF. Everybody's at max again. Dead? QUICK - preserve life! Whew, Ok. Fix that again. BAMF Deduct some gold. Next room! ROPE TRICK. Back at it, boys!

Now, in fairness, I KNOW that the game need not be like this; that this video game like nature of the game we run is ultimately a choice as much as it is a consequence of the rules. I know that there are options which prevent it - campaign styles which discourage it. And yes, alternative D20 systems designed to ameliorate its effects.

But the idea of my PAST campaign was to sample RAW in all of its unbridled glory. To let the game play and be exploited just like it was written. To let the players run rampant with the rules as written and FILL THEIR BOOTS with as much as they could carry away, or exploit or reveal to be a Golden Covered Chocolate Munchkin.

That was my two year experiment. It had its moments, I'll admit. But I got to stop this craziness. And I got to stop it now.

Somewhere at about 9th-10th level, the game upped its power level to Super-Heroes Without Capes. And it was about then I just plain started getting crabby about the whole damn thing.

The video game nature of the system in all its munchkinized luminosity was beginning to shine through in RAW OVERWHELMING POWER - and I bloody HATE IT.

There. I said it.

It's not attacks of opportunity. It's not miniatures and "complex combat" that has got me down. Quite the contrqry. That's all good. It's none of that.

It's power levels without restraint; it's magic items that are no longer chocolate - they are THE MAIN FRIGGIN' COURSE BY DESIGN. It's healing resources that are so Uber - it's laughable.

This may appeal to somebody out there. But you know what? Screw this. It ain't for me.

So I've resolved to take a break from 3.5. No, not Iron Heroes or True 20 or Castles and Crusades. Not even Conan.. Nah.

I'm going to dig out the Rolemaster 2 books again and blow off the dust. I'm going to start my PCs again at first level and make then PLAN their battles. Because if they get it wrong - the dice will lop of limbs - kill characters and wreak havoc upon them.

I'm going to Flip to the Ram/ Butt/ Bash/ Knock Down/ Slug Attack Table and grin like a Rat Bastard GM.

I'm going to Lightning Bolt these bastards and HURT EM. With an "E" electricity and a "C" fire.

I'm going to look at them like they have snakes growing out of their heads when they "detect magic". I'm going to see them get EXCITED when they find a superior steel broadsword and act like the GODS have interfered when they find a weak magic blade.

I'm going to make them look at their food supply and worry about eating having to eat their horses.

I'm going to watch them apply a poultice of herbs to heal a wound, not search through the latest Heward's Handy Haversack for a Cure Light Wounds wand.

I'm going to watch my players look NERVOUS when they get in combat and the percentile dice start dropping in the open. I'm not going to fudge behind a screen. I'm going to run Rolemaster combat in the bloody open and let the dice fall where they may. I am going to kill some party members - and they aren't coming back.

There are going to be challenges - and there are going to be friggin' CONSEQUENCES again.

It's going to be Grim - and it's going to be Gritty. It's going to be Westeros just before the fall of Valyria.

And screw this "Man, Myth and Uber-Magic" stuff. Nah. There is going to be PP and I: Poverty, Pestilience and Inequality. With not a wizard in sight in living memory.

This 4 color superhero stuff might be fun to play - but by God - is it ever tedious as hell to run.

[/rant]

I played rolemaster once. We made a party that had a couple of martial types, a fighter/mage, and a healer (me). We wandered into some ruins and found some crazy feral normal human women. We were wearing armour and carrying weapons. They had sharpened their fingernails. We got owned. They kept rolling on the "small animal critical hit table" (or some similar nonsense) and stunning us for three, four rounds at a time. Eventually, we managed to run away in between bouts of being stunned, and the GM--who was as surprised as we were that this "realistic" game was generating such ludicrous events--pretty much just let us get away with our lives.

Consequences, shmonsequences. It was ridiculous. We rolled up some AD&D characters the next week. I really don't see why anyone ever played Rolemaster.