GAHH!! Time to take a break from 3.5

[robberbaron]

I pretty much agree with the OP, in that I am not turned on by 3.5.
As a player, I like the knowledge that, most levels, I will get a powerup.
As a GM, I dislike the knowledge that, every level, the party will become more of a pain to challenge. My campaign is 4-book Core and I can't begin to imagine the trouble I'd be in if I'd opened it up to twinkbooks.

This is the reason I have put my campaign on hiatus for a few months. I have the next bit written but will hold off until I am good and ready to run it. Then I'll have a rest for a few months and run the next bit. And so on.

I hanker after the way I felt playing 1e. Levels were long, powerups not so powerful, the game faster and less complicated - no battlemat required, though we used figures for ease of visualisation.
I am unlikely to go back to 1e, however, unless the players agree, and I wouldn't do it until after my 3.5 campaign had run its course.

There are other games I would love to run:
For the past couple of years I have been rewriting Albedo to be more user-friendly and Spaceship Zero looks like a lot of fun.

 

[greywulf]

I'm with you all the way here Steel_Wind. We're about to return to D&D after a long break from the system. We've been playing 4th Edition GURPS (WWII), HARP, Warhammer and a lot of Mutants & Masterminds in the meantime, and having a blast. Now, we're all refreshed and eager to hit the dungeons again

D&D is a great game but it's easy to get burnt out. We found D&D to be at it's best between 2nd and 8th level (we prefer our games a little more low-level than the norm, it seems), but then becomes too high maintenance for this GM at least. Maybe 4th Edition will change that, maybe it won't. I dunno.

RM2 was our fantasy RPG of choice for many years. I rate it (along with RM Companions I and II) to be the best fantasy system ever created. It's gritty, realistic, flexible and beautifully crafted, and much more of a simulationist game than D&D. There's much that's brilliant about the game; the three sources of magic (I use Essence, Channeling and Mentalism in D&D too - it's too good a concept to ignore), the use of herbs rather than "Cure x Wounds", the skill system, the classes, combat - pretty much everything, in fact. Darn, I miss those days. That only problem with the system is that it's very difficult to introduce new players to the game nowadays. Shame, that.

D&D is a different beast altogether, but equally fun. I'm not sure about the videogame allegory though; to me, 3.x Edition D&D has more of a cinematic edge. It's //Die Hard// with swords where the characters are the stars of the show. They can fall off cliffs, walk on broken glass, get blown up and still be at full strength for the final climactic battle. That's very cool too, but sometimes you want something else. I know we did, and that's no slight on D&D at all.

I'm not sure about Warhammer being like Rolemaster; to me, they've got a very different feel. Yes, Warhammer is set in a brutal and grim world, but I'd never claim it's got the same level of detail as RM. Rolemaster can be optimistic in ways that is rare in Wufrup and RM is more magic rich and flexible overall. That said, both Warhammer and Rolemaster are great systems. Just avoid the RMSS; that's a terrible, terrible incarnation of Rolemaster which is almost impenetrable in layout and design.

In short, enjoy the break. I know we did

 

[Moon-Lancer]

steel wind, perhaps part of the problem is your players? what you described in your post does not sound like the kind of campaign i would wish to play in.

also i think if you play with a system or setting that is less relent on magic items as a resource, and possibly planning your adventures so they fall within your comfort levels, you could keep that enjoyment playing rpgs.

 

[Steel_Wind]

steel wind, perhaps part of the problem is your players? what you described in your post does not sound like the kind of campaign i would wish to play in.

also i think if you play with a system or setting that is less relent on magic items as a resource, and possibly planning your adventures so they fall within your comfort levels, you could keep that enjoyment playing rpgs.

Hmm... I'd have to say that I don't think so to the first part of your suggestion. While there ARE some issues in relation to the preferred power level (two of my players like high powered, the other four have no real preference) I think the main difficulty here was a confluence of events, as stated:

1 - burnout from running the same Adventure Path module series for two years;

2- the Adventure Paths are very much written for the RAW. That is not a bad thing, but it does mean that the power level and magic items in the campaign accept and assume all of the campaign assumptions in the RAW. Accordingly, it's exceedingly high powered and video gamey as it progresses.

3 - The RAW, for all of the reasons mentioned in my OP.

I don't want to knock Paizo on the quality of their work. I don't mean to suggest they've done anything wrong. They've written for the game system on an "as is" basis quite well.

The problem is simpler than that: I can now conclude that D&D 3.5 RAW, as is, is not something I am able to tolerate on a longterm basis. If I change the campaign assumptions and alter the RAW, it's better. But pure RAW? No and hell no.

The concept of the past campaign was to experiment with the game as a pure RAW, anything goes campaign. As the campaign progressed, combined with the style I started to adopt as the AoW unfolded (which is not the players' fault - that's MY fault) , I found myself increasingly running not an RPG - but a tabletop wargame which had become all about the Rules, as opposed to being about the characters or about the story.

And that's just not a game I want to run; I don't think it's a game anybody wants to run or play in, particularly.

 

[Rakin]

Please see my signature.

 

[Voadam]

I got a third of the way through the first post and thought "sounds like he should try GURPS" then I got a little farther in and thought "No, Rolemaster with its crit system sounds like it would be more to his liking" then I got through the whole thing and you say you are thinking of using Rolemaster. I think it will work well for you. Have fun.

I used the crit system from MERP for a Ravenloft darklord's spells in a 2e D&D game and it worked great.

I've enjoyed critical hits from MERP, WFRP, a 1e dragon article, Arduin, and Paizo's critical deck in games I've played in and run. Torn Asunder looked fun and straightforward but I haven't used it.

I was adopting the treasure lore book's spells for item crafting into 2e versions but converted to 3e before getting to use them in game.

I used some spell law spell lists as domain spells in a 3e game and they added great customizability and some fun spells to my game.

Enjoy!

 

[WayneLigon]

It's going to be Grim - and it's going to be Gritty. It's going to be Westeros just before the fall of Valyria.

And screw this "Man, Myth and Uber-Magic" stuff. Nah. There is going to be PP and I: Poverty, Pestilience and Inequality. With not a wizard in sight in living memory.

I don't think that Rolemaster is probably the way to go if you want that level of low magic. Remember that all those crits can be done to your critters as well, and they are generally going to have abilities and spells that will allow them to get more crits; in fact, Rolemaster (unless you're really going to muck with the classes) is probably higher magic than D&D is, overall, because there are so many semi-spellcasters.

I'd suggest GURPS lite, actually. No magic, no psi, no anything like that. Go through and cut out the magical advantages and some of the quasi-cinematic ones (or just lower the point level to something like 80), and you're good to go with a free game. If you can find an GURPS Lite for 3rd edition that might be better; There's a little magic and psi in there, more than enough for a low magic level campaign, and you can cut out some of the more cinematic advantages.

Call of Cthulhu/Basic Roleplaying might appeal to you. Maybe the RuneQuest SRD. Crits are generally game-enders there, and there is not much in the way of high level magic that replenishes quickly. Call of Cthulhu, with the Dreamlands supplement and you creating a few Occupations for fantasy jobs, could be a perfectly serviceable fantasy RPG. Pick a couple handfulls of spells from the two books (Dreamlands has a number of spells that don't drive you mad or are as dangerous to you as they are to your enemy) and you're good to go.

Warhammer might be the way to go, as well. Low magic, high mortality, possibly the easiest character creation of any RPG on the market now, though still with player choices involved.

 

[Steel_Wind]

I'd suggest GURPS lite, actually. No magic, no psi, no anything like that.

I'll also have no players to bog down combat if I do that

Nah. Rolemaster + 3.5 combat flow + house rules has a nostalgia factor to it as well with my group; everybody owns the books. Nothing new to buy, etc..

 

[Jack7]

This 4 color superhero stuff might be fun to play - but by God - is it ever tedious as hell to run.

By God - I know you're right.

I'm not sure 4.0 will be worse than 3.0-3.5, and I'm willing to give it a shot since my game is a D&D hybrid which doesn't use any of the 3 versions in any case.

But I certainly empathize with your general conclusions.
And good luck however you go.

 

[Kunimatyu]

Somewhere at about 9th-10th level, the game upped its power level to Super-Heroes Without Capes. And it was about then I just plain started getting crabby about the whole damn thing.

Halfway through an eight-hour battle with a demonlord in the Savage Tide adventure path, I realized the same thing. High level D&D just isn't for me -- too much rules bloat, but not enough crucial heroic choices, since magic cures all ills.

That's why my next campaign is E6 , and I'm excited about D&D again. Since you specifically mentioned not liking high-level play, I think it'd be right up your alley, IF you still want a tactical-combat fantasy RPG.

If not, there's a whole ton of indie RPGs that emphasize decisions and consequences -- Dogs in the Vineyard and Dread are tons of fun, and I've heard great things about Burning Wheel.