D&D General Gaining spell slots (and other resources) during the fight

[loverdrive]

So.

In card games, there's this Aggro vs Control contrast. It is omnipresent: even between two most aggressive monored decks, one of them is gonna be faster, and even if they are equal, one of them is gonna have first turn advantage. In basic terms, one side wants to drag the fight out, while the other wants to end it as fast as possible. Similar dichotomies can be observed all over the gaming landscape: Rushdown vs Zoning in fighting games Rush vs Economy in RTS etc, etc

But not in D&D (and most RPGs? I don't really know any counter-examples), because in D&D, there's nothing to be gained by proloning an encounter, five rounds into the future you are going to have less resources, not more — this means that the only thing you can possibly hope for is depleting enemy HP faster than they deplete yours.

Your strategy, both at individual player level and part level is always the same, with very few minor variations.

But what if instead (or in addition to) waking up with spell slots and superiority dice and whatnot, you had to generate them during the encounter?

Benefits, I think, are numerous;

1. More texture to fights: an enraged troll that is dangerous early forces the players on the defensive, while a powerful lich makes them act and act fast.
2. Makes healing much more impactful: currently, in-combat healing is kind of whatever outside of restoring downed characters to 1HP—removing threats is almost always much more worthwhile, but if to win players need to just survive a few rounds until the enemy runs out of gas...
3. Adds another way to give classes unique identities: a Sorcerer can be an aggro spellcaster, while Wizard can be all about stalling until she can cast a powerful fight-ending spell, Warlock can screw with enemy resources, etc

 

[jmartkdr2]

Exalted 3e does something similar: you can attack to gain initiative, or you can spend initiative to do damage (after hitting with an attack) - so you want to build up to the big hit rather than start with your best attacks.

Also, gather power for certain spells is an action. Of course, these spells aremore powerful to compensate.

13th Age gets a similar result through a different method: most daily powers are expended before the attack roll, so you lose the resource on a miss. You also get a +1 to hit after each round (to a max of +6, this is called the Escalation Die). This means you can use your best attack on turn 1, but probably want to wait until the Escalation Die gets up to a decent number to lower the risk of "wasting" the resource.

Anyways this is a really cool idea and I would love to see some houserules exploring it.

 

[Stormonu]

Chronicles of Ramlar uses something called momentum. You start with access to basic attacks and as the PCs gather more and more successes, it builds points to let you do more complex actions - including allowing spellcasters to throw bigger spells. It's a group effort, so the better the group is doing, the more the group has to drawn on big, fancy abilities. Players can either slowly use up their momentum as it is accumulated to improve their chance of scoring a hit or dealing slightly more damage, or save up for one truly epic action several rounds into the action.

It's also a "push your luck" system - you only gain momentum while the party is succeeding, and if there is a failure you can lose some or all of the collected momentum before it's spent.

 

[M_Natas]

So.

In card games, there's this Aggro vs Control contrast. It is omnipresent: even between two most aggressive monored decks, one of them is gonna be faster, and even if they are equal, one of them is gonna have first turn advantage. In basic terms, one side wants to drag the fight out, while the other wants to end it as fast as possible. Similar dichotomies can be observed all over the gaming landscape: Rushdown vs Zoning in fighting games Rush vs Economy in RTS etc, etc

But not in D&D (and most RPGs? I don't really know any counter-examples), because in D&D, there's nothing to be gained by proloning an encounter, five rounds into the future you are going to have less resources, not more — this means that the only thing you can possibly hope for is depleting enemy HP faster than they deplete yours.

Your strategy, both at individual player level and part level is always the same, with very few minor variations.

But what if instead (or in addition to) waking up with spell slots and superiority dice and whatnot, you had to generate them during the encounter?

Benefits, I think, are numerous;

1. More texture to fights: an enraged troll that is dangerous early forces the players on the defensive, while a powerful lich makes them act and act fast.
2. Makes healing much more impactful: currently, in-combat healing is kind of whatever outside of restoring downed characters to 1HP—removing threats is almost always much more worthwhile, but if to win players need to just survive a few rounds until the enemy runs out of gas...
3. Adds another way to give classes unique identities: a Sorcerer can be an aggro spellcaster, while Wizard can be all about stalling until she can cast a powerful fight-ending spell, Warlock can screw with enemy resources, etc

Yeah, I'm working on something similar.
My current solution is quite simple:

At the end of each of your turns in combat, gain 1 Battle Rush Die (a d4).
You can hold up to a number of dice equal to your Proficiency Bonus.

When you make a d20 test or force another creature to make a saving throw that deals damage or restores hit points, you may expend any number of your Battle Rush Dice to enhance it:

- Add the total rolled to damage or healing.

- Add the total rolled to an attack roll you make or increase your spell save DC for one spell.

- Add the total rolled to a saving throw or ability check.


All unspent dice fade when combat ends.

That way you just put a d4 in front of you at the end of your turns, so it is super simple and you just use them when they make most sense.

 

[loverdrive]

Anyways this is a really cool idea and I would love to see some houserules exploring it.

The thing I'm workshopping right now is to give additional effects for slots already spent, so like

Dimension door
You teleport to a location within range. You arrive at exactly the spot desired. It can be a place you can see, one you can visualize, or one you can describe by stating distance and direction, such as "200 feet straight downward" or "300 feet upward to the northwest at a 45-degree angle."

If you already spent two Level 4 slots, this spell instantly transports you and up to eight willing creatures that you can see within range, or a single object that you can see within range, to a destination you select instead.

 

[TheSword]

WFRP 4e has something called Advantage that builds up through successful actions. It might come from successfully attacking but they might also include trying to get a read on your opponent, surveying the battlefield or trying to bluff or intimidate your foe.

There are two optional ways of running it, one has individuals track and they get progressively better at their actions. An alternative (and better way) is by group which grants bonuses to rolls, combat tricks and even extra actions. The nature of WFRPs opposed rolls and armour/toughness soak means some enemies will be hard to hurt and you really need to think about tactics and how you can gain an advantage to break through.

There is a broader question though… why do encounters so often end in death? Why is it always a fight to destruction and not surrender. Why do players or foes not see that the risk of their death is not worth the advantage gained by killing therefore encouraging negotiation and discussion (and be for the point the PCs have overwhelming superiority and are in a clearly dominant negotiating position). It’s possible to extend an encounter without simply engaging in more combat rounds.

 

[aco175]

Dimension door
You teleport to a location within range. You arrive at exactly the spot desired. It can be a place you can see, one you can visualize, or one you can describe by stating distance and direction, such as "200 feet straight downward" or "300 feet upward to the northwest at a 45-degree angle."

If you already spent two Level 4 slots, this spell instantly transports you and up to eight willing creatures that you can see within range, or a single object that you can see within range, to a destination you select instead.

Does it make sense to reward or give a bonus to a caster that has already spend half/most of his daily power? It seems that spells would be more powerful when the caster is at 100% and they might get weaker as the day goes along. It does sound better as a game mechanic to reward the player with bigger power when there is not much left to choose from. There could be a situation where he wants to teleport everyone so he blows a 4th level spell this round to get the boost next round.

There also might be some complaining about fighters not being able to deal more damage as fighting go on so they need to deal an extra 1d6 each round after the first. 2d6 the next and so on.

 

[Halifax Brent]

Check out Draw Steel for a new RPG built around this principle. But the mechanics there were designed from the ground up around the idea of 3 to 5 round combats where the heroes (and villains) hit harder and do "cooler" things as the combat continues. Not sure how well you could bolt that onto D&D's mechanics.

 

[loverdrive]

Does it make sense to reward or give a bonus to a caster that has already spend half/most of his daily power? It seems that spells would be more powerful when the caster is at 100% and they might get weaker as the day goes along.

Flavor-wise, it works pretty nicely: the cleric gets invigorated by lasting divine connection; a sorcerer draws more and more power from the latent magic around them; a wizard plans ahead and assembles the bigger spells piece by piece.

It is a different flavor from what currently exists in D&D (maybe? I'm not notably familiar with Weaving lore), sure, but still pretty strong one.

There also might be some complaining about fighters not being able to deal more damage as fighting go on so they need to deal an extra 1d6 each round after the first. 2d6 the next and so on.

The way I envision it, classes should be at uneven power during different periods of the game. My theoretical graph should look like, this:

So everyone organically has their moment to shine, and to have their gameplay change to not get too stale.

I predict spells overall would need to be nerfed, but scale with resources already spent.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

An easy thing could be having spells with a cast time of 1 rounds, during which concentration can be broken.

Maybe also spells that need to be powered up by casting cantrip like attacks.

Maybe you cast it with concentration, after which you can either just attack with cantrips or have a weak attack first, but damage escalates exponentially.

1d10 in the first round, 2d10 in the next. 4d10 then. 8d10 then and so on.

Or starting with 2d10 and each time you hit, you gain a charge.
Or for martial characters this could be called momentum. Some characters could get momentum by being hit.