D&D 5E Gamehole Con Live Tweeting Perkins Panel

[Sadras]

Just as an aside, I must have lived in a cocoon all these years, despite me living in South Africa, because I always equated the Elves and by extension the Drow as fantastical creatures despite them being a playable race so I never even dreamed of attaching modern view points of human skin colour on them until this thread.

But I do yield that if people wish to take offense to Drow, as presented in our hobby, on film, especially those not educated in D&D, they will. Pity.
I find it strangely similar to the overzealous religious of the 80's who viewed D&D as evil due to the inclusion of demons/devils etc.

Our hobby is based on mythology, religion and history of various periods so dark skinned elves, demons/devils, busty wenches, religious fanaticism, violence, public executions, slave races, the occult...etc is very much entrenched in the game's fluff. So many people we can possibly offend.

 

[Sadras]

Why wouldn't there be elves the color of elves genetically evolved from the southern hemisphere in the world?

My one player is currently playing a female half-elf albino, whose background includes a questionable close relationship with her father as well as a sexual companionship with a pair of twins who perform in a travelling circus/theatre group. And this after his last character was conservative dwarvern cleric who looked down on non-dwarves until they proved themselves.

But the Drow are something else. I would hate to see their original design altered due to a modern cultural viewpoint that chooses to impose a racial agenda upon their creation.

This!

 

[aramis erak]

But I do yield that if people wish to take offense to Drow, as presented in our hobby, on film, especially those not educated in D&D, they will. Pity.
I find it strangely similar to the overzealous religious of the 80's who viewed D&D as evil due to the inclusion of demons/devils etc.

Hate to break it to ya, but those types were still burning books in 2008. They just aren't getting the media coverage.

 

[Imaro]

I'm curious... how many other people in this drow discussion are black/african-american? I'm asking because I'd be curious in hearing another african-american/black take on the drow. I honestly find it a little hard to discuss things like this with people of other races when their stance tends to boil down to... get over it, or it shouldn't matter. Just being honest...

 

[Imaro]

Just as an aside, I must have lived in a cocoon all these years, despite me living in South Africa, because I always equated the Elves and by extension the Drow as fantastical creatures despite them being a playable race so I never even dreamed of attaching modern view points of human skin colour on them until this thread.

Ok, we know ehre you are from, but what race are you and how is your race generally characterized in the media? I'm asking because that may be why you hadn't thought of it until now. It's been in my mind (though not always in the forefront) since I was first introduced to drow as a child.

But I do yield that if people wish to take offense to Drow, as presented in our hobby, on film, especially those not educated in D&D, they will. Pity.

I don't think people "wish" to take offense and phrasing it that way is kind of silly, either something is or isn't offensive to people. Your phrasing makes it seem like black people went looking for something in D&D to be offended by and that's not the case... on the other hand I could see why introducing the concept of drow could be offensive to blacks, especially coupled with the fact that until recently there were not dark-skinned elves other than drow in D&D... are you saying you can't in any way see how that might be offensive in a major motion picture release?

I find it strangely similar to the overzealous religious of the 80's who viewed D&D as evil due to the inclusion of demons/devils etc.

I don't see much similarity at all... except in the fact that you can't see the other side of either stance.

Our hobby is based on mythology, religion and history of various periods so dark skinned elves, demons/devils, busty wenches, religious fanaticism, violence, public executions, slave races, the occult...etc is very much entrenched in the game's fluff. So many people we can possibly offend.

Our hobby has also modernized and evolved over the years to be more inclusive and to offend people less... it's what you do if you want mass market appeal... which is what the original discussion centered around.

 

[The_Gneech]

Unfortunately, "It doesn't bother me, therefore it shouldn't bother anybody" is a popular mindset among geeks (and among all humans, I would imagine), so it's very hard to have a meaningful discussion about it.

I would guess that D&D film drow, if they did one, would go the Marvel Universe bit and make them pasty rather than obsidian, but then you get into the whole "evil albino" trope, which is just as offensive but slaps a smaller population.

Maybe making them blue is the best choice. Or, y'know, leaving 'em out and coming up with something else.

-The Gneech

 

[Imaro]

To my knowledge elves already exhibit all skin colors depending on where they live. I never stopped my friend from playing a dark skinned elf in any of my campaigns. Though he made drow a ton, Eilistraean's mostly. He loved drow elves. I'm not sure if it had to do with him being of African descent or liking the entire appearance of them. Maybe a bit of both. He did play other types of elves with darker skin and I never discouraged it. I didn't see the point. Why wouldn't there be elves the color of elves genetically evolved from the southern hemisphere in the world?

Was this in the books? Was there artwork with dark-skinned elves in it? My memory may be faulty but I don't think there was much if any in either department, and I say that because as a child the fact that Earthdawn, and later the Midnight campaign setting and a few others had dark-skinned elves that weren't drow and I noticed it immediately...

But the Drow are something else. I would hate to see their original design altered due to a modern cultural viewpoint that chooses to impose a racial agenda upon their creation.

Well as @MerricB showed above... the creation of the drow has already been altered from their original design because now every source on them I have been able to look up on the interwebs makes a point about them being "cursed" with dark skin... does that change to the original design bother you? Or has that change become a necessary part of the design for you? And if so, why are you ok with that change to the original creation but not something as simple as making their skin a different color in a movie? Is black skin integral to the concept of drow? If so could you explain why?

Anyway like I said earlier with elves having diverse skin coloring I think it would be less of a problem... of course then we have the other side of the coin where people are complaining because WotC has elves that aren't white... I find that a much more disturbing thought than the offense the drow might engender in a motion picture... the drow I can understand, only white elves, I really don't get that viewpoint... or does that also center around the "sanctity" of the original design??

 

[Celtavian]

Was this in the books? Was there artwork with dark-skinned elves in it? My memory may be faulty
but I don't think there was much if any in either department, and I say that because as a child the fact that Earthdawn, and later the Midnight campaign setting and a few others had dark-skinned elves that weren't drow and I noticed it immediately...

Dark elves weren't drawn to look African.

Wild elves were drawn with dark skin in one of the books I had. Wood elves were always described with deeply tan skin.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Wild_elf

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Wood_elf

I never had any difficulty if someone want to make up an elf with darker skin. It wasn't much of an issue. Sun elves were described as bronze skinned. People of African ancestry have variable skin color. Easy to work it in so that a player can better feel himself represented. Only the most narrow minded of DMs would say otherwise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf_(Dungeons_&_Dragons)

There were also Desert Elves. I think they were fairly rare. I think they were based on Middle Eastern type of mythology and appearance.

There are a lot of different takes on elves. Forgotten Realms elves were not dominated by fair skin by a large means. Main fair-skinned elves in Forgotten Realms were the Moon Elves and Star Elves. Sun elves, wild elves, and wood elves were all darker skinned. Artists renditions were based on their individual desires, not the descriptions. Fantasy art in America is dominated by artists with European ancestry who know how to draw those features best even if the race designer did not envision the image. So you can't go too much by artwork.

 

[Imaro]

Dark elves weren't drawn to look African.

Ok, I never said they were... and let's not get "African" and "African-american" confused because there are differences.

Wild elves were drawn with dark skin in one of the books I had. Wood elves were always described with deeply tan skin.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Wild_elf

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Wood_elf

Cool, but were these in a corebook? I never played FR's so I wasn't exposed to these descriptions

I never had any difficulty if someone want to make up a Moon or Sun Elf with darker skin. It wasn't much of an issue. Sun elves were described as bronze skinned.

I am not speaking about you peronally, just like you personally will not be the only person as an audience for this hypothetical movie... I'm actually trying to get you to step away from your personal experiences and biases and look at it from other perspectives...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf_(Dungeons_&_Dragons)

There were also Desert Elves. I think they were fairly rare.

There are a lot of different takes on elves. Forgotten Realms elves were not dominated by fair skin by a large means. Main fair-skinned elves in Forgotten Realms were the Moon Elves and Star Elves. Sun elves, wild elves, and wood elves were all darker skinned. Artists renditions were based on their individual desires, not the descriptions. Fantasy art in America is dominated by artists with European ancestry who know how to draw those features best even if the race designer did not envision the image. So you can't go too much by artwork.

Were these in the core? I ask this because very few groups buy supplements beyond the core... I know drow were in the core books.

 

[sgtscott658]

ya know, I keep coming back to this thread hoping for more info from the gamehole con, more info on what Chris Perkins said about the OGL and I find is a thread about drow not being PC and so on. Is that fair to the rest of us?

Scott