Gaming W/Jemal: Mutant High

[Jemal]

- I asked a few days ago (right after I made my first post in the whole cloning sub-thread) how much I could assume real-world biology applied; you didn't say anything then.

Apologies, I didn't see it. I wish I had so we could've figured this out earlier.

- It's inconcievable that a doctor's kid (and Dr. Hassell is his father, not his mother) who's extremely smart in his own right would not know basic biology, and what Eric's been saying about cloning is really basic

Well obviously not as basic as you seem to believe, as I haven't seen anybody agreeing with your assumptions. Everything Eric's stating as fact I've only heard as Theories and beliefs.

- It is possible to get a perfect physical duplicate. You just can't get one by cloning. Nanotech is probably the best handwavium for that right now (and it's not something Eric knows much about).

Again with the absolutes. You don't know that, and neither does Eric. he may believe it, but without doing the research yourself there's no way you can know what is and isn't possible, only what other people tell you they believe to be possible. A couple hundred years ago, the concept of going to the moon was 'impossible'. Signals allowing conversation across the globe? Impossible. Flying machines? Impossible. And they had what they believed to be sceintific proof. Until somebody prooved them wrong by doing it.
My point is I also have pet peeves.. one of those is when people treat science with a closed-minded "this is the way things are, that cannot change" attitude, so I apologize if I seem to be getting a bit more testy about this than may seem fair.

- I do have a more than a little bit of hangup on treating clones as fast, disposable, perfect copies; it's not accurate, and if the last point is accurate then treating them as disposable is really creepy.

If you've got a real problem with the concept of clones, then there's nothing I can do about that other than tell you that I won't be changing the storyline.
You don't know how fast, disposable, OR perfect the clone was/is. All you know so far is what magneto told you.

Actually, can we get those knowledge checks?

It's a bit late for that now, I'm reluctant to go back and change that many posts between Magneto & Eric of what is/isn't. The only change I could think to make to what Eric 'knows' at the moment is to asert that "this type of cloning is impossible to achieve with humanity's current Technology".. though that's more of a scientific opinion than any fact, and you don't need a knowledge check to get that.

Well, the villain's nefarious schemes notwithstanding, whether or not these copies are effectively people has a great deal of impact on our character's actions. If the copy is basically an identical twin that's been brainwashed, then that suggests a different sort of response than if it's an automata with another person's face.

unfortunately without interacting with the clone magneto, there's no way of knowing what he's actually like, whether he's got his own personality, whether he's an automoton, etc. There's only one person in the room who's actually spent any time with the clone, and that's Nightcrawler. If you have questions about the clone, I'd suggest asking him.


Now, all that having been said, it's just my personal opinions on the matter. I'm not a scientist, I don't claim to be exceedingly intelligent, and I know about as much about cloning as any average joe's seen on TV or read on wiki. I'm a science-fiction writer, attempting to create a STORY that I believe will be entertaining, not tell a near-future prediction that's probable and likely, and I apologize to those reading this who are offended by my disagreeance with what they believe to be fact, but that won't change my views or my story.

Impossible is Nothing.
Nothing is Impossible.

 

[kirinke]

Apologies, I didn't see it. I wish I had so we could've figured this out earlier.


Well obviously not as basic as you seem to believe, as I haven't seen anybody agreeing with your assumptions. Everything Eric's stating as fact I've only heard as Theories and beliefs.


Again with the absolutes. You don't know that, and neither does Eric. he may believe it, but without doing the research yourself there's no way you can know what is and isn't possible, only what other people tell you they believe to be possible. A couple hundred years ago, the concept of going to the moon was 'impossible'. Signals allowing conversation across the globe? Impossible. Flying machines? Impossible. And they had what they believed to be sceintific proof. Until somebody prooved them wrong by doing it.
My point is I also have pet peeves.. one of those is when people treat science with a closed-minded "this is the way things are, that cannot change" attitude, so I apologize if I seem to be getting a bit more testy about this than may seem fair.


If you've got a real problem with the concept of clones, then there's nothing I can do about that other than tell you that I won't be changing the storyline.
You don't know how fast, disposable, OR perfect the clone was/is. All you know so far is what magneto told you.


It's a bit late for that now, I'm reluctant to go back and change that many posts between Magneto & Eric of what is/isn't. The only change I could think to make to what Eric 'knows' at the moment is to asert that "this type of cloning is impossible to achieve with humanity's current Technology".. though that's more of a scientific opinion than any fact, and you don't need a knowledge check to get that.


unfortunately without interacting with the clone magneto, there's no way of knowing what he's actually like, whether he's got his own personality, whether he's an automoton, etc. There's only one person in the room who's actually spent any time with the clone, and that's Nightcrawler. If you have questions about the clone, I'd suggest asking him.


Now, all that having been said, it's just my personal opinions on the matter. I'm not a scientist, I don't claim to be exceedingly intelligent, and I know about as much about cloning as any average joe's seen on TV or read on wiki. I'm a science-fiction writer, attempting to create a STORY that I believe will be entertaining, not tell a near-future prediction that's probable and likely, and I apologize to those reading this who are offended by my disagreeance with what they believe to be fact, but that won't change my views or my story.

Impossible is Nothing.
Nothing is Impossible.

In otherwords, suspend your disbelief and go along with it. Afterall, the Marvel universe isn't our universe and doesn't have to go along with 'real world' science. Because well, their real world science is gonna be lots different then ours. I mean, they have guys who can manipulate fire, regenerate, create lightning and electricity just by thinking about it. Not to mention all the other craziness that goes on.

Clones are pretty je-june by comparision.

 

[drothgery]

Well obviously not as basic as you seem to believe, as I haven't seen anybody agreeing with your assumptions. Everything Eric's stating as fact I've only heard as Theories and beliefs.

Well, it's not. Cloning (as biologists understand it) is a certain process, resulting in another organism with an identical genetic signature. If successful, the clone will develop just like one produced by normal means. This is pretty obvious, and would be intuitive if a lot of a bad sci-fi hadn't given people strange ideas about cloning.

If you've got a real problem with the concept of clones, then there's nothing I can do about that other than tell you that I won't be changing the storyline.

I don't have a problem with clones that are clones (and so act like Eric's talking about). I don't have a problem with a perfect physical duplicate of person being produced somehow. But it can't be done by cloning because that's not what cloning does. Which is all Eric has been asserting.

 

[Caros]

Well, it's not. Cloning (as biologists understand it) is a certain process, resulting in another organism with an identical genetic signature. If successful, the clone will develop just like one produced by normal means. This is pretty obvious, and would be intuitive if a lot of a bad sci-fi hadn't given people strange ideas about cloning.

I don't have a problem with clones that are clones (and so act like Eric's talking about). I don't have a problem with a perfect physical duplicate of person being produced somehow. But it can't be done by cloning because that's not what cloning does. Which is all Eric has been asserting.

Err, I think I see the problem you're having is more one of terminology than anything. *Le sigh.*

What would you call it? Marvel calls it cloning because its simple, its publicly understood if not technically correct. Duplicating? Copying?

The fact is that the term 'clone' is a catch-all term for making a perfect copy of something. Clone CD, the D&D 'Clone' spell, the marvel 'Clone Saga'.

We get your point that cloning as of now is nothing like what is being described. But that begs the question of what scientists are going to call the process of perfectly copying another human being a hundred years from now when they likely do it (I believe in the power of science. *shrug.*) My guess? They'll probably call it something rediculously long and drawn out, and regular people will call it like... perfect cloning or, Advanced cloning (depending on if current day cloning technology continues to progress.)

*Shrugs* The meaning of words changes through use. My neices are Kids, but they sure as hell aren't small goats. Magneto is a clone, but he isn't a test-tube scientific definition clone.

 

[Shayuri]

As I do in so many cases, I suggest we defer to the wisdom of Mystery Science Theater when it says: "If you're wondering how he eats and breathes, and other science facts; just repeat to yourself, 'it's just a show, I should really just relax.'"

It's just a game, peeps. We should really just relax.

 

[kirinke]

ooo. Shayuri, I found a piccie for your character, see how you like it!

 

[Victim]

It's not exactly uncommon for common useage to fail to match up with more technical terminology. I hear that clips versus magazines for gun people is the same way. Or how about the ever infuriating THEORY?

 

[Jemal]

So whats the verdict, can we agree to disagree (but less vocally) and just move on with the story?

 

[Relique du Madde]

Let's move on.

 

[kirinke]

Let's move on.

I seconded that motion, this argument was silly to begin with. Comic book science vs. real world science.... Oooi. Neither the twain shall meet.