Gaming W/Jemal: Planar Quest! (Closed)

[Binder Fred]

true sight won't help because Damian is hiding in plain sight not invisible.

I politely disagree. Hide in Plain Sight is a supernatural ability that doesn't work in an anti magic shell. True seeing, contrarely to the very specific See Invisibility, shows things as they really are, i.e. devoid of all magical manipulation, including the true shape of polymorphed creatures, for example. As the text says, it will not help you spot a character *simply* hidding (emphasis mine), meaning it's not a boost to Perception or X-ray vision. It *would*, I most strongly believe, show the present scene exactly as it is if no concealing magic was in play: shadows nowhere near a character that is using a magical ability to wrap them around himself (or whatever the rational for HiPS is).

Could we get a ruling on this specific point, please [MENTION=9026]Jemal[/MENTION]?

 

[D'Raven]

... Sorry as some one who plays rogues the true seeing effect is something of a sticking point. It states on the spell that it does not help with hiding creatures. If you want to ... Sorry of this comes across as angry.... Screw over stealth characters more then they are already. cast arcane sight you will know exactly where a stealth character is because of their gear. Three people with detect magic cast could find a character who hides no matter their modifier unless they takes specific route or forgoes all magical gear. Then there is blind sense /sight, scent, tremorsense. There are ways around everything. You want to see me you have a 1 in 20 chance jemal has ruled nat20s as plus 40. I stopped posting making a stealth check because not one person has made a single perception check.
My apologies. The problems of the hide skill bring out a sore spot with me. As jemal said it is not the skill it is my modifier. hides only saving grace is that is the easiest skill to jack up.

 

[kinem]

Good point, Binder. My initial reading of TS was that it wouldn't work, but when you put it that way, it would make sense if it does.

Most likely, the 3.5 authors didn't actually consider how the two abilities would interact, because the edition was slapped together under time constraints.

Other than TS, glitterdust could help counter HiPS, though it has a big drawback if PCs are in the area at the time. Blindsight/blindsense reveals creatures without the need for a spot check, and there's a blindsight cleric spell (thus wand/potion/scroll) in SC. Scent could help too, though I think only summoned monsters could have that on our side. The spell locate creature could help if we know the person who's hiding; it's not so great at this but has other uses. There could be NPCs who are ninja-y so this info could come in handy.

D'Raven: I didn't roll perception because even with a natural 20 (as 40) I couldn't make the check.

Also, you are presumably on the same side as the rest of us, but there are bound to be NPCs with similar abilities.

I agree with what BF said not because of your case but because it makes sense to me.

As for stealth characters being 'screwed' you are looking at it the wrong way. Even if every PC could see you, that wouldn't be a problem, would it? The real question is, what percentage of monsters could see you? Some could, that's fine, but most would not.

 

[D'Raven]

I hate fighting dragons, jemal likes using dragons. They have a 50% chance to hit me because they can't miss my ac. As an example. A lot of monsters at this level have special senses. Jemal is also partial to making npc enemies that are designed to challenge a party. If he did this by randomly pulling monsters out of the Manuel's ... Well at this level those fights might as well be cinematics. Jemal is a good DM that plays to the party not just throws thingsat them.

And npcs with similar abilities are usually my foes. While the rest of the party does some thing I'm off killing something they can't see.

 

[Binder Fred]

The fact remains, D'Raven, that Raven is hiding/deceiving our senses using magic, a thing True Seeing is specifically designed to counter. You, to put it in your own words, are suggesting we "screw over" TS, making it possible for at least some magically hiding NPC villains ("magically" being the important word here) to sneak up on any of us any time they want, even when we have the specific spell designed to counter this ready and in place... Might I remind you of Jemal's MAD principle? Especially if, as you say, he specifically picks monsters based on party weaknesses? You are apparently pushing hard for us to a have a huge gap in our spotting defenses.

My own belief is that HiPS has the implied mention "hiding character are exactly as hidden as if they had successfully hidden in said shadow (see Darkvision and Bright Lights)". I see no reason, logically, why it shouldn't be that way, and nothing in the ability's description that hints otherwise, but as that would be a serious cut in its power level, that is an entirely different set of arguments, ones best discussed between you and Jemal. I maintain my views on the application of TS to this situation however, its description specifically saying, IMHO, that it doesn't work againt *mundane* hiding (as both hider and concealment are fully real and appearing as they really are), but does indeed work against *anything* that magically conceals, hides or attempts to visually deceive, having been designed to do just that.

 

[Shayuri]

50% miss chance isn't bad.

However, I'm not complaining about stealth just now. If Mei was fighting, she would have some options. I don't feel like I'd have no recourse, so I'm okay with it as it stands.

And I can't make that dc even on a crit either, so I didn't roll.

As for true sight, since hips has limits, I have no trouble with hips defeating it. Heaven knows nothing else does.

If we really wanted to find him, we could just wipe out the shadows in the room.

 

[D'Raven]

At what point are the spells description fluff and what part rules text? The first line; see things as they truly are. Is that rules or fluff. If it is rules the the last paragraph is incorrect when it tells you what it doesn't do. In fact the first paragraph where it goes in depth on what it does do is in unneeded. The first line of a spell feat skil class ability is almost always fluff. It will then go in to what the actuall rules are. It's a fantasy world people do fantastic things. Yes the shadow dancers hide in plain sight is supernatural. How ever it does not fall under any of the categories that true seeing lets you see throu. It is not invisibility, it is not an illsusion, it is not polymorph shape changed or transmuting. It does not create darkness. It does not send you to the ethereal plane. It allows you to hide in plain view even if you have nothing to hide behind.


^^^ been there done that I hate daylight spell. And yes I personally hate true seeing I think it is overpowered. With superior invisibility gone hiding is the only way to get by true seeing. I believe SI sates true seeing does not pierce it but see invis does... Or it might be the other way around

 

[kinem]

BTW, it must certainly be possible to physically grope about to find a hiding creature, just as with invisibility.

 

[D'Raven]

Yes it is but i've been moving and tumbling around it would take the effert of every one to to it. Unless there was a moving line I just avoid to one looking for me like that.Just like invisibility.

The power of stealth is in how you use it. Be it hide, invisibility or other. If you simple stand still and give them clues then you will be found easier then if you keep out of the way. And the spell glitter dust? I love that spell. In my top 3. It is so much fun.

 

[Binder Fred]

It is not invisibility, it is not an illsusion, it is not polymorph shape changed or transmuting. It does not create darkness. It does not send you to the ethereal plane. It allows you to hide in plain view even if you have nothing to hide behind.

I'm sorry but that's a fairly spurious argument. Even ignoring your ignoring of parts of the rules under the justification that it's "fluff" (very 4E of you, I must say), are you really suggesting that HiPS does what it does by being an ill-defined rule in an SRD compendium? I'm an IC-First guy myself: the rules are there to reflect the structure of the world. If it doesn't make sense IC, it either doesn't exist or its obviously incomplete/mis-interpreted. In this case though, there is an obvious way to make it make sense IC, without having to ignore or imagine a single line of the rules. Occam's razor and that sort of thing.

EDIT= ACK, probably shouldn't have mentionned the razor! Now VV is going to have to come in on the side of inherent complexity and the not-so-obvious solutions!