Gaming W/Jemal: Planar Quest! (Closed)

[Jemal]

I think I see your issue BF, allow me to explain : The -20 to attack and hide does NOT take away ANY of the requirements, it's just a -20 penalty if you make a hide check in the same round as you have made an attack. (At least, by the way I've ruled it in my previous post)
You still need to move to rehide, you still have to roll another hide check (Unless you have skill mastery), it still would require concealment and not being observed to hide (say ducking behind an obstacle to disappear after stabbing someone in the gut.), and it still takes (further) penalties if you move more than half your speed.
The opponent could still take attacks of opportunity if you didn't have some way of preventing them, and make readied actions. He would know where you attacked from and which way you started heading before you hid again.

Compare to Sniping in which case the target knows... which general direction he was hit from.

I think your major problem comes from seeing all the feats, class abilities, and magic that D'raven has applied - Skill mastery, multiple attacks on a spring attack, HIPS, massive hide check - And seeing that as what the skill does when in fact it's not - much of his 20th lvl character is based around this concept of an anime-ish disappearing/reappearing fighter who seems to be attacking from all sides and fading into nothingness.
I fail to see how that's so much harder to believe than someone spending the same amount of time and effort to learn how to summon demons and blow up cities.


as far as the ranged character, yes they could choose to either shoot, then move and rehide (If they aren't being observed and do have concealment), or spend the move action to snipe and remain hidden and unseen so the target doesn't even know where they shot him from to begin with.
The sniping description doesn't preclude the possibility of doing it, it just offers an alternative for Sniping - firing without being seen. I don't see how it being specific to ranged means it's the ONLY thing ranged can do.

Personally the only time I'd ever use the first option is if I had HIPS to overcome the 'observed/concealment' issue. And even then only if you've got a method of shooting multiple times while moving. Otherwise it's worse than them not seeing you at all and has the same penalty.

 

[Jemal]

D'Raven, I understand you're taking this personally(though I doubt it was intended to be), but even so, I'll have to ask you to be a bit less hostile. I don't see why we cant remain civil about this.

 

[kinem]

Jemal, I don't see anything in the skill description that supports the idea that sniping allows you to remain hidden instead of having to hide again. But if it's the way you rule it, so be it.

My question is about improved invisibility, since my PC has that ability and will use it when he can. It provides concealment, so I could hide, and can snipe. My stealth bonus is low but invisibility provides a significant bonus.

However, the given bonus applies to Hide. Does the full bonus apply - which it does in the Pathfinder version of the stealth skill - or just half the given bonus as your house rules would suggest?

BTW, one reason that has been preventing people from buying items to boost perception checks, I think, is the house rule that only half the Spot bonus counts. The Pathfinder equivalent items give the full bonus to Perception. Also, even in the MIC, there are NO items which give a bonus to just Listen; all relevant items either give a bonus just to Spot, or give a bonus that applies both to Spot and Listen. For that reason, it's not possible to boost Perception with the house rules by an amount equal to what you can do with a Spot bonus without the house rules even by paying double.

 

[Jemal]

hmm, that's actually a good point, I hadn't considered that there aren't really any listen items..

If anybody wants a Perception item, I'll allow them at +5 or +10's, given the same costs an equivalent stealth item would cost.

As for Improved Invis, it doesn't do anything to mask your sound, so it would only give the half bonus per the way I'm runnin stealth/perception, b/c they're not just using their eyes to detect you, but their ears as well.
And keep in mind that succeeding at a perception check to notice an invisible opponent doesn't tell you exactly where they are, just that they're 'around'. They would have to beat your check by 20 or more to pinpoint your location - and you would STILL have full concealment even then. So at half bonus, imp. invis gives you a +20, so even if you had a zero hide base, an avg roll(10) would give you a 30 stealth check, and they'd have to make a 50 perception check to pinpoint what square you're in. (That's much higher than they need to SEE D'raven when he's combating-hiding)
And keep in mind, also, that it's pretty much unnecessary to actually make a stealth check when invisible unless you are trying to be completely undetected. Even if you don't hide, they still wouldn't know exactly where you are or be able to target you.
Also none of that applies if they can see invisible.

 

[kinem]

Just to make sure everything is clear: How does Perception vs Stealth interact with magical silence?

 

[Binder Fred]

Jemal: Well, that makes more sense. So HiPS's overpowered aspect rests mostly in the "takes no action to use" house-rule (that ruling directly overwrites RAW for Supernatural ability use, so it *is* a house-rule, let's not kid ourselves there). It's not a ruling I agree with (to my mind HiPS, as an 8th level ability, is powerful enough without giving it "Greater Invisibility at will, requires a skill roll" status (given that Wizards have just begun to be able to cast Greater Invisibility one level previous)), but one I can live with.

D'Raven: We are talking rule-logic, rule-balance and the ability of the rules as written to appropriatly simulate RL events such as hiding. It's nice if IC magic has it's own internal set of logical rules and IC justifications as well, sure, but that's not what we've been discussing here. (Good thing too as D&D magic is stricty a "build your own d**n internal logic!" system ).

 

[Scott DeWar]

[smart alec]of course there is no logic in magic, its MAGIC! [/smart alec]

 

[Binder Fred]

"Any suffifiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic." Shouldn't that imply that any sufficiently advanced magic is based on science?

 

[Scott DeWar]

grrrr! curse you and your perfectly reasonable logic!!!

 

[Jemal]

"Any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic." Shouldn't that imply that any sufficiently advanced magic is based on science?

No, because it says that advanced science is INDISTINGUISHABLE from magic, not IS magic. Thus advanced science could duplicate seemingly magical effects, but that doesn't make it Magic. the Magic could be achieving those same goals in entirely different, highly illogical, ways.

So HiPS's overpowered aspect rests mostly in the "takes no action to use" house-rule (that ruling directly overwrites RAW for Supernatural ability use, so it *is* a house-rule, let's not kid ourselves there). It's not a ruling I agree with (to my mind HiPS, as an 8th level ability, is powerful enough without giving it "Greater Invisibility at will, requires a skill roll" status (given that Wizards have just begun to be able to cast Greater Invisibility one level previous)), but one I can live with.

I wholeheartedly disagree with your belief that it's a house rule. Just because someone interprets something differently than you does not make their interpretation the 'house rule' and yours 'obviously correct'. For example, that's exactly the way I feel about what you are saying, but I'm not going to just say "no your wrong I'm right". I AM going to say that regardless of how you feel, as the DM I'm going to be running it the way I feel is the correct, intended, and most balanced way.
Also I've already pointed out to Kinem's questions about Invisibility the numerous advantages that spell gives over hiding.

Also what do you mean by 'HIPS is an 8th lvl ability'?

[MENTION=24234]kinem[/MENTION] - Damn you stop mentioning things I hadn't thought of! I'll figure something out.