Gaming W/Jemal: Planar Quest! (Closed)

[D'Raven]

The sniping rules are for sniping. When you go below that to the actions it states that there is usually no action it is usually done as part of movement ( except for sniping see above). Not a move action. Not a movement. Which implies when ever you move you may make a hide check. How spring attack works is you may move attack then move.

With the extra feats I add two attacks to that. I can move attack 3 times;
move, attack once, move, attack twice move,
Move attack, move attack, move attack, move

Or any amount up to that.

Image multiple checks because after each attack I am no longer hiding.

 

[Binder Fred]

HiPS explicitly says you can hide while being observed.

Ack, you're right. That's what I get for going from memory. (Or was I just considering that first sentence "fluff"? ). My bad.

As for the standard action, I don't think it applies in this case since hiding already has its own rules for actions. But that's up to Jemal.

"Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise." Nowhere in the HiPS description is it noted otherwise. So, to my mind, Hiding being a cart uses the Hide rules for actions. Using a supernatural ability to hide in the shadow of the cart behind you? That obviously requires the use of the supernatural abilities rule for actions.

None of which invalidates the need to spend at least a Move to re-hide after an attack... Unless somebody wants to argue that re-hiding after a sword stroke at 5' is easier than after a bow-shot at 10' plus? Frankly, after reading the Hide skill description and seeing the detail it goes into for the ranged attack portion and the nothing it says about the much more difficult hiding after a melee attack, I have doubts the designers even thought the second was possible, but that's neither here nor there.

EDIT= Which I wrote before seeing D'Raven's post. D'Raven *is* apparently arguing that hiding after a point blank sword stroke is easier than from concealement far away. <sigh> If I can state my personnal opinion, there should be a point where word by word interpretation of the rule gives way to common sense. I think we have reached that point.

 

[D'Raven]

Okay

Hips does not have a duration. I activated it when I took my level in shadow dancer 12 years ago. And I do move. 4 times. Each time I make a new hide check.

 

[kinem]

Frankly, after reading the Hide skill description and seeing the detail it goes into for the ranged attack portion and the nothing it says about the much more difficult hiding after a melee attack, I have doubts the designers even thought the second was possible, but that's neither here nor there.

The only way to understand the rules is to realize that they were written by several authors and added to haphazardly and in a rush to print. It's very likely that the text of the hide skill was already finalized long before someone had the idea "Hey, wouldn't it be neat to stick in an ability based on hiding better somehow? How about hiding in plain sight? Sounds cool. Rules? Yeah, I'll read the hide skill ... keywords: observers ... something to hide behind ... done! OK, print it!"

 

[Binder Fred]

Kinem: Not sure if that got through, but I was specifically talking about the use of the barebone Hide skill: I don't think it was intended to allow for hide after a melee attack (personal opinion there, as we have that general "-20" sentence in the first paragraph that seems to allow for it). At the very least, it shouldn't be easier than the rules intended to simulate RL realistic sniping from a distance (that's the common sense portion of me talking).

D'Raven: To state the obvious: each time you use HiPS, you activate HiPS. Please see the last two sentences of my edit in the post above. This concludes all I have to say on the subject (as it seems I'm begining to repeat myself ). Rest isn't up to me.

 

[D'Raven]

Sorry double post

 

[D'Raven]

Common sense states that mumbling some words no one understands does not cause a fireball to appear. The wording on hips is it allows you to hide not that it hides you. If you look throu the monster manual at the lich it's Dr is (su) and it does not state always on or any other action. So does that mean the lich uses dr as a standard action that is only active during the action only?

At this point I am simply trying to show you how it's working. Weither it actually does or does not is up to the developers. The DM sees it working one way. That's the way it is working for this game as ruled as the DM. I have not seen a single FAQ on this. I have seen many discussions on the subject mostly people arguing common sense vs ... Some one else's common sense. Until a developer says " this is how it is" it is only personal opinion vs personal opinion.

 

[Jemal]

After re-reading all the relevant rules, here's how I'm ruling it :

HIPS is supposed to be a passive effect that alters how you hide, so I'll say it requires the same action as hiding.

Hiding while attacking vs sniping is a little more difficult.
I believe the sniping rule is MEANT to reflect not being seen at all (immediately rehide), As far as I see it, if you snipe they DONT see you, with the melee versions they see you in between hide checks, so there is a purpose to the sniping being more time consuming.

Hiding while attacking.. I read it as meaning "if you attack, run, or charge during the same turn in which you hide, you take a -20 to hide checks".
Normally, without the ability to move between attacks, this would not be an issue, as you need to hide as part of movement, it's because of the combination that it seems so powerful.

With that in mind, I'm also going to say that the Movement speed penalty would be CUMULATIVE with the -20 for attacking, so if you were going greater than half speed AND attacking, you would have a -25 to your check.



*Also on a side note, I've lost my PHB and am using the SRD - it doesn't have a penalty given for moving at full speed.. it says -5 for over half but less than normal, -20 for charging/running.. nothing for 'normal speed'...
wtf? Is this a missing chart that's in the phb or just another omission? I was always under the assumption that full speed was -10, now I'm not sure if I actually read that somewhere or just made it as a house rule..

 

[Binder Fred]

Hiding while attacking vs sniping is a little more difficult.
I believe the sniping rule is MEANT to reflect not being seen at all (immediately rehide), As far as I see it, if you snipe they DONT see you, with the melee versions they see you in between hide checks, so there is a purpose to the sniping being more time consuming.

Alright, let me try to wrap my head around that. We are talking about the barebone Hide skill, no magic involved. I am a rogue, Hiding in shadows. My victim is aware but doesn't now where I am exactly (no Surprise to simplify things). I jump out, stab her, and then I can immediately re-hide at -20 as a free action? Or do I actually need to move after the attack to gain the free hide (i.e. I need Springing Attack)? In which case, what is the mechanichal dis-advantage of being seen when actually doing the attack? The attacker has moved since then, so the defender still has no idea where he is, only where he was when he attacked... And, now that I think about it, if the attacker was seen, even for a second, he *cannot* re-hide as he violates the "cannot be observed, even casually" condition. So the basic hide rules, by their own logic, seem to forbid mundane hiding after a melee attack *at all*, if we go with the "seen between hide checks" interpretation. To state that the Snipping Move requirement was intended to compensate for remaining wholly unseen vs the melee version is therefore without basis : mundane hiding *requires* that you remain wholly unseen to continue hiding.

Now this tells us little about the HiPS (absence of) mechanics, granted. The argument there remains wholly one of common sense: a man re-hiding after a very physical attack should not be able to do so faster than a man re-hiding after a much more discreete move from range (releasing an arrow) if the powers description itself says nothing about it. Also note that by the current interpretation's logic, a Snipping character should have the option of NOT spending a Move to re-hide "unseen" and instead choose to move, hide, shoot, re-hide melee style, for example. Something not at all mentionned in the Snipping description.

 

[D'Raven]

You are putting way to much logic in to this. This is a fantasy world and we are fairly fantciful characters. Or are you telling me that you are a psionic dwarf that can walk on walls and change his size in real life. At this point you are simply arguing for the sake of it. There has been a ruleing by the DM, it is a bit harsher on me then I actually expected with the penalties and what causes them. A character our level should need a roll of about 6 to see me if they choose to try to have a perception score. Not base their character on it, but simple devote skill ranks and maybe a item. Any "monster" would be unable to miss me because of their massive amount of HD. Can have skills higher then ours and not much else to spend them on exempt perception and stealth.. I am going to play my character within the rules as given and defined in this game. But personally i am done with this. If you care to continue with this argument then my suggestion is to search out one of the many forums that are discussing this.