GC 2006 - Ptolus Hardback $120!?!

[WildWeasel]

Because you're committed to buying 4 books that you might only want 1-2 of. Because you're getting 3 books worth of material, while paying for 3 and a half books. If to get Stormwrack, he'd also had to purchase Sandstorm and Frostburn, plus pay a bit more for a fancy cover, it may have pushed the sale away from him, even though it's the same in the end. (minus fancy cover)

So make sure you want it before you buy it. Do some research. Follow the website and design diaries and sample material tha gets put up. Talk to people that have it after it comes. Yes, Ptolus is a piss-poor value if you measure the value of your purchases just by number of books you buy and nothing else, or if you buy it and then never use much of it. Make sure it is something that you will use.

Be a smart consumer. That's YOUR responsibility, not Malhavoc's.

And since we're on the Stormwrack+Frostburn+Sandstorm thread: those three books are 672 pages, for $105 dollars. Ptolus, for $15 more, is offering roughly the same amount of printed and bound content, along with the handouts, the CD, and a layout and design to improve its usability. And then, on top of that, you get the purely aesthetical improvements (embossed cover, ribbon bookmarks). That certianly sounds like a fair $15 dollars worth of stuff.

Also, you're paying $35 and getting a book now, as opposed to paying $20 now, $10 for the next 10 months, and getting nothing until the end. (I'm not sure why folks would pay the $120 now, you're not losing anything between now and next year. Preordering later should make more sense...)

Once again, the mere act of having a physical object now competely trumps any consideration of its actual utility. Maybe I am just from crazy Bizarro land, where I buy books because I think I will derive enjoyment from their contents and judge them by how much of that I think they will offer for a given price, rather than from counting how many books I happen to have sitting on my shelf, regardless of if I find their contents at all useful or entertaining. Really, what's the waste of money: buying one $120 book that gets used and enjoyed, or buying 4 $30 books that sit around, collecting dust after being casually leafed through once?

As for why preorder for the full amount now: 1) Get the lower number on one's copy (pure geek bragging rights) and 2) it's done, no need to worry about doing it later and the ongoing monthly charge and the lump charge at the end.

There's a lot of reasons folks wouldn't pay the premium for one book with such a narrow focus as a campaign setting. I look forward to the comparisons to other city books when Ptolus comes out.

I think the key difference is that peopel aren't seeing themselves as paying a premium. They are buying a premium (in the high-end, top-shelf sense) sense, but they aren't paying a an extra charge above and beyond its utility just to have access to it.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Keeping in mind that we can only presume that the world of Ptolus (is that the name of the world? I don't know honestly, but in lieu of other info...) must have hundred of cities in it... does this mean that Monte could keep pumping out cities ('pumping out' not intended to be an indication of quality) at $120 per and still make sales?

Assuming he's already got a year into it, and another year before release, it wouldn't be very many cities. [Joke]He'd have to switch to 400 page villages [/Joke]

At some point, Monte Cook mentioned never having done so many stat blocks. I believe Ptolus will cover the city, but it's just as much about the NPC's and organizations and such. OTOH, I don't think any NPC books have ever done well, so not sure how that will go over, or how much of the page count will be NPC's.

Streets of Silver was, I thought, pretty massive for a citybook. And I'm fairly sure it wasn't this big. But that was a lot of info on one city.

Tsk, a mere 312 pages and $29.99.

I had the old Waterdeep boxed set, with the 10 poster maps. Not much in the way of books, but the maps were neat!

 

[Sunderstone]

Is it true? there is even a $24 cancellation fee on pre-orders?

I could see this amount if Ptolus was made to order (based on pre-orders alone). Even computer part restocking fees dont usually go past $15 and thats when you send a product back. You arent even getting Ptolus yet but it'll cost you $24 to change your mind?

Tell me thats not greedy (assuming its true from the Pre-order thread). http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2521878&postcount=52

 

[WildWeasel]

You think it's worth $120.
I don't think it's worth $120.
It's that simple.

Why does it not being worth $120 to you make the price "excessive" or "rediculous". Why is it categorically impossilbe for a single book to actually be worth $120? Not just Ptolus, but any book (which you have stated in this thread)?

I never said it should all be half price as an obligation to me and my happiness. Not sure what button you want to push here. I merely stated that $60 would be enough to get my consideration as a consumer.

I'm sure getting something at half the going rate would get my consideration as well. Even if it is an unreasonable expectation.

 

[Vocenoctum]

So make sure you want it before you buy it. Do some research. Follow the website and design diaries and sample material tha gets put up. Talk to people that have it after it comes. Yes, Ptolus is a piss-poor value if you measure the value of your purchases just by number of books you buy and nothing else, or if you buy it and then never use much of it. Make sure it is something that you will use.

Be a smart consumer. That's YOUR responsibility, not Malhavoc's.

My point was, if Ptolus was 3 books instead of 1, it might total the same money and page count, but you could get the elements you want instead of buying the complete package. As it stands, you can only buy the complete package.

It's not "number of books", it's "number of useful pages".

And since we're on the Stormwrack+Frostburn+Sandstorm thread: those three books are 672 pages, for $105 dollars. Ptolus, for $15 more, is offering roughly the same amount of printed and bound content, along with the handouts, the CD, and a layout and design to improve its usability. And then, on top of that, you get the purely aesthetical improvements (embossed cover, ribbon bookmarks). That certianly sounds like a fair $15 dollars worth of stuff.

Depends on the diversity and depth of the material, which we can't judge for a year. Stormwrack is a fairly narrow focus for it's size, Ptolus is also a tightly focused book, but it's 700 pages.

Once again, the mere act of having a physical object now competely trumps any consideration of its actual utility. Maybe I am just from crazy Bizarro land, where I buy books because I think I will derive enjoyment from their contents and judge them by how much of that I think they will offer for a given price, rather than from counting how many books I happen to have sitting on my shelf, regardless of if I find their contents at all useful or entertaining. Really, what's the waste of money: buying one $120 book that gets used and enjoyed, or buying 4 $30 books that sit around, collecting dust after being casually leafed through once?

Which is the bigger waste of money, buying 4 books, 1 of which gets used, or buying 1 massive book that doesn't get used?

As for why preorder for the full amount now: 1) Get the lower number on one's copy (pure geek bragging rights) and 2) it's done, no need to worry about doing it later and the ongoing monthly charge and the lump charge at the end.

I didn't see whether the numbers would actually be recorded in any sense from when you order.
It's done, unless something comes out later that makes you regret your decision, in which case you lose $25 for the priveledge.

I think the key difference is that peopel aren't seeing themselves as paying a premium. They are buying a premium (in the high-end, top-shelf sense) sense, but they aren't paying a an extra charge above and beyond its utility just to have access to it.

I think one of the things that I didn't really expound on earlier, but fits into my view. I think if Ptolus wasn't geared as a High End product, it would not be 700 pages. Less artwork, tighter layout, etc. It's just an opinion though, so not really worth debating. Just like me not considering Banewarren or Chaositech added word count, it's a function of my, perhaps more cynical, outlook on the product.

Only time will tell.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Is it true? there is even a $24 cancellation fee on pre-orders?

I could see this amount if Ptolus was made to order (based on pre-orders alone). Even computer part restocking fees dont usually go past $15 and thats when you send a product back. You arent even getting Ptolus yet but it'll cost you $24 to change your mind?

Tell me thats not greedy (assuming its true from the Pre-order thread). http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2521878&postcount=52

I found this:
"Cancellations
You may cancel a pre-ordered item (or items) by using the Contact Us link. However, there will be a cancellation fee of $2.00 or 20% of the value of the book(s), whichever is greater. A delay in the release of a product does not waive the cancellation fee. If White Wolf cancels an item the price will be refunded to you at the full amount."

On White Wolf's Preorder Terms, which the Ptolus preorder page references.

It's not the amount, so much as the idea that a book not even written(mostly), still a year away, will cost you $24 to cancel.

 

[Sunderstone]

A delay in the release of a product does not waive the cancellation fee

So if by some chance Monte decides he needs another 6 months to a year to finish the project, we still pay the cancellation fee should we decide to cancel.

 

[catsclaw227]

I didn't see whether the numbers would actually be recorded in any sense from when you order. It's done, unless something comes out later that makes you regret your decision, in which case you lose $25 for the priveledge.

My understanding is that the earlier you preorder, the lower the signed and numbered copy you receive.

 

[WildWeasel]

My point was, if Ptolus was 3 books instead of 1, it might total the same money and page count, but you could get the elements you want instead of buying the complete package. As it stands, you can only buy the complete package.

It's not "number of books", it's "number of useful pages".

And it being a complete package is part of the whole point of the project. It allows for tighter integration and cross referencing of the material as a single, organic whole. It's looking at the market that WLD and SC and AE has blazed, and going, "How can we make something really kick-ass in that market?" And if it is "number of useful pages", then why does it matter if its in one book or 4, as long as those pages are useful to you?

Depends on the diversity and depth of the material, which we can't judge for a year. Stormwrack is a fairly narrow focus for it's size, Ptolus is also a tightly focused book, but it's 700 pages.

Well, given that Ptolus (the city) was the first 3rd ed testbed campaign, and MC has been running games out of it for years, I think it can be safely infered that the material is going to be pretty diverse and deep. This isn't just "hey, look a city," but an entire campaign setting, in one city.

Which is the bigger waste of money, buying 4 books, 1 of which gets used, or buying 1 massive book that doesn't get used?

Whose fault is it for buying something they don't use?

I didn't see whether the numbers would actually be recorded in any sense from when you order.

Your copy of the book will be a signed and numbered edition, guaranteed to be reserved for immediate shipment upon release in August 2006. Copies of these unique collector's copies will be reserved based on preorder date—so the earlier you order, the lower your number

It's done, unless something comes out later that makes you regret your decision, in which case you lose $25 for the priveledge.

Which is part of WW's standard pre-order policy. If you aren't certain enough about your interest in the product to make that cancellation charge a concern...then you probably shouldn't be preordering in the first place.

I think one of the things that I didn't really expound on earlier, but fits into my view. I think if Ptolus wasn't geared as a High End product, it would not be 700 pages. Less artwork, tighter layout, etc. It's just an opinion though, so not really worth debating. Just like me not considering Banewarren or Chaositech added word count, it's a function of my, perhaps more cynical, outlook on the product.

If Ptolus weren't such, then yeah. But it is. That's the point of the exercise. Though I do note that the layout is being designed specifically to enhance the utility of the product, so cutting corners there will have more of an impact on its utility than it would for other books. As for the CD material, I don't count it as added word count at the same rate as the actual Ptolus material in the book, but it certianly is added content and value. Unless you consider $19+ worth of PDF as not being worth anything.

 

[burnrate]

Not interested, even at a lower price, but $120 is huge. I paid $65 or so for a discounted WLD, which is a massive amount of playing material.