General consensus on expertise feats

[AngryPurpleCyclops]

Sorry in advance if this is massively covered elsewhere, I haven't logged in to enworld in about a year and search is no longer supported for non subscribers (which seems destined to cause duplicate threads).

My question is this: what is the general consensus about the expertise feats as a fix to the compounding math error in pc attack values vs monster defenses? Classes that need both an implement and a weapon seem double penalized by a system that already sucks up a feat slot for all pc's.

 

[Dice4Hire]

You might have to go down a few pages, but it is covered in detail. Way too much detail.

Maybe a subscriber will drop by and give you a link.

BTW, there is no "consensus" on the issue.

 

[Nifft]

The feats are bad, because:

1/ PCs with multiple different weapons, weapon + implement, two different implements, etc.

2/ Non-weapon / non-implement attacks (e.g. bull rush) and racial attack powers become worth less, and they weren't all that great to begin with, so combat becomes slightly more boring as options decrease.

3/ Waste of at least one feat for every PC in the game, and feats are fun things, so losing one is bad.

4/ We were supposed to be done with all this "system mastery" cruft when we threw out 3e. WHY DID WotC LIE AND KILL MY DOG?

5/ Was this the old thread you meant?

Cheers, -- N

 

[Turtlejay]

Yeah, I liked the suggestion that feats be seperated into flavor (+1 with fire attacks, CA with certain weapons) and function (+1 with all attacks, +2 damage with all attacks). It is hard to justify taking a feat that is *cool*, when you should be taking the one that lets you hit a little more often.

So, I don't like them, but I have taken the feat in the past. Luckily my current DM has banned them, so there is no difficult choice to make!

Jay

 

[Squizzle]

Not the subscriber version, but:
site:enworld.org expertise feat - Google Search
should provide some sense of the consensus here.

 

[Truename]

My question is this: what is the general consensus about the expertise feats as a fix to the compounding math error in pc attack values vs monster defenses? Classes that need both an implement and a weapon seem double penalized by a system that already sucks up a feat slot for all pc's.

There's two different consensus views depending on who you ask.

Theorycrafters who are crunching the numbers say the expertise feats are necessary to fix a math error and are thus a feat tax.

Actual play reports of mid-paragon and higher tend to complain the characters are too hard to kill and that the expertise feats are unnecessary and overpowered.

Simulations I've run (see http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/267391-monte-carlo-versus-math.html) support the 'actual play' stance, but there's some big limits to my simulations, including only going up to level 14.

 

[babinro]

For what its worth, I personally feel that with a proper party configuration, there is no 'need' to houserule the expertise feats. Players can utilize combat advantage and the like to still hit creatures and play the game just fine.

The main reason I houserule it is because I've never had a player that did not take this feat as one of their first 3 or so feats. Because it is so universally good, it feels like a tax, and is therefore given away free to open up other options.

Many people expand this idea to the Paragon Defenses feat as well. In my experience though, many players do not choose to take this feat, so I don't bother to houserule it.

 

[brehobit]

Our house rule (to replace expertise and paragon defenses):
+1 to NADs at levels 5, 15, 25.
+1 to attack at levels 5, 15, 25.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Better use lower level Monsters if combats are too hard. Don´t increase attack bonuses. Increasing NAD´s may be not a bad idea though. But then you should consider lwering PC HP

 

[eriktheguy]

Our house rule (to replace expertise and paragon defenses):
+1 to NADs at levels 5, 15, 25.
+1 to attack at levels 5, 15, 25.

Similarly, many players apply these as penalties to the monster. Monsters get -1 to all defenses at 5/15/25, -1 to attack NADs at 5/15/25. This can be easier because
-DMs are better at this sort of thing than players
-The +1 bonuses cannot be applied in character builder