General Discussion Thread VIII

[Manzanita]

That's a bit counter-intuitive to me. I hadn't realized the rules had changed, and I hadn't been doing that. I would think higher level PCs contribute more, and thus should deserve propotionally more reward, especially since they require more XPs/level to advance.

But I can see the counter-argument as well. I'm happy to stick w/the RAW. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

 

[Patlin]

If you see power-leveling, just use GM fiat

Hey, I've been a first level character in an 8th level party. (I was offered to start at 8th, too, but voluntarilly started at first.) Do you know how on your toes you need to be to constantly not be in the area of effect of the next incoming fireball? I considered the xp well earned, personally.

 

[Patlin]

Also, re: higher levels getting more xp than lower levels, the time based xp rules for LEW did turn things around to the point where that's what actually happened. While the lower levels got more xp for the Redcap battle, the higher levels got more xp overall.

 

[Manzanita]

Actually, as I think about it more, I like that system less.

As Paitlin mentions, it might be appropriate in a cohesive group, where one (or more) characters are lower level, to try to catch them up. But LEW is different. There will always be higher and lower PCs. Teams will constantly be changing. It is in the best interest of the compaign (I would think), to have PCs of all levels. That would make it more interesting and would mean that DMs could run modules for all levels. Thus I don't see that catching lower level PCs up w/higher level ones should be a goal.

I tend to think I will be using DM fiat on this one. In some cases, such as when a lower level PC actually does contribute as much or more to overcoming adversity as the higher level ones, the system is good as written. But when the higher level PCs contribute more, and require more XPs to advance, the only fair way to divvy up the XPs would be to give them more, or at least the same amount. The 'time spend adventuring' XP reward makes up for this to some extent. I guess I'd have to see how it all came out.

 

[Patlin]

If what was really desirable was for everyone to advance at the same rate, we could simplify the xp system considerably. A flat requirement of 15 xp per level-up would work, with one xp per challenging encounter and maybe 2 for a massive boss fight.

Personally, I prefer the rules as written. In fact, as I recall I was the only one to speak out against the disparity in time based xp in favor of higher level characters. It should take less to go from 1 to 10 then from 11 to 20 or 21 to 30. I think I'm most comfortable with PCs level 8 to 15 or so, and I don't think most of us would really be happy with level 35 PCs running around LEW...

 

[Manzanita]

In general we should stick with the RAW unless we have a good reason not too. This is my first experience w/this particular XP rewards system. I may well get used to it.

As for 8th to 15th being your favorite, Paitlin, I've never played anyone that high leveled. Considering advancing 2 levels in a calendar year is quite good in PbP, you're still got at least 2 years before you could put together a party of that level in LEW. The last thing I'm worried about is PCs advancing beyond that. We can worry about that when we're all retired and have plenty of time on our hands in the nursing homes! In fact, I'm very interested in keeping the higher level PCs advancing as fast as possible for exactly this reason. PbP is just so dang slow.

Given this and the nature of ENworld, I would consider a revised XP reward system such as what you mentioned. But It might be hard to get wide buy in. It's a pretty radical change.

In any case, I hope no one takes my views as a personal affront. I've been very happy w/the DMs I've played under in LEW. The quality of the game itself is far more important than how many XPs are collected.

 

[Dalamar]

That's a bit counter-intuitive to me. I hadn't realized the rules had changed, and I hadn't been doing that. I would think higher level PCs contribute more, and thus should deserve propotionally more reward, especially since they require more XPs/level to advance.

But I can see the counter-argument as well. I'm happy to stick w/the RAW. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Just in case somebody else is left confused over what the counter-argument is, I believe it refers to the fact that while the higher-levels do contribute more, it just isn't as challenging to them on a personal level as it is to the lower-level, so they gain less XP.
Just making sure that those who aren't too familiar with the discussion are on the same line.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Hey, I've been a first level character in an 8th level party. (I was offered to start at 8th, too, but voluntarilly started at first.) Do you know how on your toes you need to be to constantly not be in the area of effect of the next incoming fireball? I considered the xp well earned, personally.

That isn't power-levelling--power-levelling is when a group of level 11 or whatever characters walks around killing CR 8 challenges like candy, over and over again, while the level 3 characters get XP for helping--level 3 is usually high enough to survive pretty much every time when the other players are slaughtering the opposition--just make sure to always delay if you win initiative.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Actually, as I think about it more, I like that system less.

As Paitlin mentions, it might be appropriate in a cohesive group, where one (or more) characters are lower level, to try to catch them up. But LEW is different. There will always be higher and lower PCs. Teams will constantly be changing. It is in the best interest of the compaign (I would think), to have PCs of all levels. That would make it more interesting and would mean that DMs could run modules for all levels. Thus I don't see that catching lower level PCs up w/higher level ones should be a goal.

I tend to think I will be using DM fiat on this one. In some cases, such as when a lower level PC actually does contribute as much or more to overcoming adversity as the higher level ones, the system is good as written. But when the higher level PCs contribute more, and require more XPs to advance, the only fair way to divvy up the XPs would be to give them more, or at least the same amount. The 'time spend adventuring' XP reward makes up for this to some extent. I guess I'd have to see how it all came out.

Let me give you a good example of why the new XP system is good:

Let's say Bobbo the Paladin is on a LEW quest with his friends, and they are all level 9.

When, they are almost to level 10, in one particularly tough encounter, Bobbo sacrifices his life to save everyone else, and his cleric uses Raise Dead--now he's level 8.

They continue fighting, and eventually, since we're not using the 3.5 XP system, the others quickly level to 10, since they were close to level 10, while Bobbo is midway above 8, with a bit more.

In the next climactic battle, Bobbo dies because he was tanking (he's the party tank after all as a Paladin) and he was two levels lower. Poor Bobbo--he had almost levelled back up to 9, but now he's level 7. The adventure is drawing towards a close, and his allies manage to level up to 11, while he still can't even get to 8. Bobbo dies in the final battle, and the Cleric raises him again, so now the adventure is over and he is level 6.

Using the 3.5 system, Bobbo levels up to 9 again and might survive as the tank for the second death. Even if he does manage to die again, he's still level 8, and he'll get up to level 10 again by the time his allies get up to level 11. Instead of dying helplessly in the final battle, he can contribute, and get on his way to level 11.

 

[Patlin]

Rystil, that definition of power level seems to require DM participation. The players, after all, don't control the challenge.

Manzanita, I think we're both suggesting we stay with the rules as written. I understand your original question was to clarify what those are. I wasn't (intentionally) proposing any change.

Also, I well apreciate 15th level characters won't be showing up any time soon. I enjoy levels 1 through 35 or so, and I'm in no rush to get to any particular level... other than, as is true for most of us, the next one! The increased variety and tactics when 6th level spells become available is cool, but no hurry.