General Discussion Thread VIII

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I'd interpret it as - you start with whatever the character was before death. Then, you apply the changes for the new race, except a change in Con doesn't change hp (though honestly, it should). THEN, apply the changes for the lost level.
 

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Knight Otu said:
I'd interpret it as - you start with whatever the character was before death. Then, you apply the changes for the new race, except a change in Con doesn't change hp (though honestly, it should). THEN, apply the changes for the lost level.

This may sound odd, but I'd encourage you to rule that the change in CON does change hp. It's far easier for bookeeping, and will mean less of a headache for the character judges to approve.

Judge - "Where did these extra 15 hitpoints come from?"
Player - "Well, the character has been reincarnated a few times..."

One other question, do I have to re-submit my character for approval now that he's regained 2nd level? :D
 

IcyCool said:
So, my gnome barbarian, Gorefoot, has been reincarnated as a halfling. The question came up, what do I lose and what do I keep?

My understanding: anything that depends on race, except for the automatic language, changes to the new one. Anything that isn't intrinsically racial carries over. The relevant text from the SRD at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm:

It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. The subject’s level (or Hit Dice) is reduced by 1.

Note "class abilities, feats, or skill ranks"... racial abilities are conspicuously absent. Class advancement, skills and feats are generally things that can be attached to a body of any race, so no changes. But the peculiarly gnomish features go, and any peculiarly halfling features get grafted on.

The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like, but it doesn’t automatically speak the language of the new form.

Since you're getting the perks associated with halfling form (climb/jump/move silently bonus, saving throws, thrown weapon bonuses) it wouldn't make sense or seem fair for you also to keep the perks associated with gnomish form (LLV, Sp abilities, weapon familiarity, dodge bonus, racial attack bonus, alchemy bonus, saves vs. illusions)

Now here's the catch: the rules refer to abilities "associated with [the] form", without spelling out exactly what those are. Language, it is clear, is not associated with the form. That makes sense, because language acquisition is strictly cultural. So, are any of the abilities for which there is no explicit text whether or not they are associated with the creature's form also purely cultural? I'd think weapon familiarity, but that's the only one that clearly falls into this category. The halfling attack bonus with slings and thrown weapons may partly be due to the experience with those weapons in halfling culture, but could also have a physical component. Given the wording of the rules, I'd say you get the abilities associated with the new form, and lose those associated with the old form, unless that would be clearly inappropriate. Until consensus has been established for a particular ability that it would be clearly inappropriate for it to be changed, I'd assume everything racially dependent except languages gets changed.

So then, are there any particular abilities you want to make the case for being cultural rather than racial? (I note that if my suggestion regarding weapon familiarity were made official, it would have no practical effect on Gorefoot, since he doesen't use a gnome hooked hammer.)
 

IcyCool said:
This may sound odd, but I'd encourage you to rule that the change in CON does change hp. It's far easier for bookeeping, and will mean less of a headache for the character judges to approve.

I'd agree. I suspect that the existing text on hit points is a mistake -- the authors may not have thought about hit point change due to Con change. It's so counterintuitive for HP not to be changed when all other modifications associated with your newly-raised Dex and newly-lowered Con are applied, that if they had really intended a unique exception for HP it would have been stated explicitly: "Eliminate the character's racial adjustments, but if the character loses Con as a result he doesn't lose hit points."

IcyCool said:
One other question, do I have to re-submit my character for approval now that he's regained 2nd level? :D

The changes associated with reincarnation are significant enough that it's a good idea to, unless the character judges are overwhelmed and would rather just trust you to get it right.
 

I've got another question that has popped up. Prices for special material ammunition.

Cold Iron specifies that it costs double. This is easy to figure out.

Adamantine and Alchemical silver are not very clear. Is the additional amount (+2 for silver, +60 for adamantine) per unit of ammo (i.e. per arrow or bolt), per purchase group (i.e. per 20 arrows or 10 bolts), or per 50 units of ammunition?
 


IcyCool said:
This may sound odd, but I'd encourage you to rule that the change in CON does change hp. It's far easier for bookeeping, and will mean less of a headache for the character judges to approve.
As you can guess from my note, I'd encourage that as well. ;) Though since we're talking about reincarnating humanoids, usually, we won't see too drastic changes in Con. Nothing like a "My Constitution just increased by 10" or similar stuff.
 

IcyCool said:
Adamantine and Alchemical silver are not very clear. Is the additional amount (+2 for silver, +60 for adamantine) per unit of ammo (i.e. per arrow or bolt), per purchase group (i.e. per 20 arrows or 10 bolts), or per 50 units of ammunition?
Knight Otu said:
It should technically for units of 50.
I've taken it to be that the cost modifier is applied to whatever the price listed in the equipment section indicates. In the case of ammo, it would be applied to the purchase group, so if a character wanted to buy silvered bolts for his light crossbow, for example, it would be 3 gp/10 bolts. Have been interpreting cost modifiers wrong?
 

Ok, so if I understand Reincarnate, a human that reincanate into an elf wouldn't lose his extra feat and extra skill points already acquired, but would stop to gain his extra skill point for the next levels...

But the thing that bugs me with reincarnate, and before it happen, it should be answer: What happen with ECL races and races with HD? What happen if a human is reincanated into a troglodyte (2HD, ECL +2)? How to handle that?
 

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