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Generation Legacy the Next Generation of OOC

Shalimar said:
I'd point out that Boost 16 affecting all attributes but Intelligence and Charisma with slow fade 2 is more iffy balance-wise than her drain especially with the boost in an array for a cost of 1pp. Ryan's stats are effectively all 30 and his saves are all +15. Ryan has a minimum of a +10 minimum in any skill that would come up, he has nothing to fear. Clover also has a very real threat of losing all of her actions for multiple rounds.

It's technically all attributes, but I thought genius Ryan was silly (or worse...charismatic Ryan :)). Considering it costs an action, that I could be using to Corrode somebody or do something else cool, it's pretty balanced and rules legal. I really only use Boost if I know a fight is coming ahead of time...it gets less showtime than some other APs I have. (And we all know that APs are really, really inexpensive...they generally give you far more use than you might generally get out of a few more skills or feats. No need to single out Boost :))

Creating a skill vs. skill roll-off, especially when it includes a skill not commonly used for a "defensive" purpose (like Notice or Sense Motive), is very unusual and creates a bad precedent (imagine some kind of poison based on medicine!). I can't see the Att/Def Drain ruining the game or totally owning opponents or anything like that....it probably would be balanced (especially with that nasty side effect flaw...ouch!). It's just...weird, like a dice pool mechanic in D&D.

Nor do I think that relying on powers with saves as unheroic (the one lame one in 1e was Mimic...it pretty much restricted it to using it on your own team). A PL 10 Mind Control, Confuse, Paralyze, etc. even on someone with a good Will save (+10 or so), has a 45% chance of taking an enemy out of a fight. I don't think a roll of 9 or lower to be particularly crappy, since Toughness saves tend to be higher than other saves, so our enemies need to roll about a 9 or lower before they take any kind of significant harm (e.g. stunned). I know I plan on taking the Snare AP one of these days, to get a nice save or lose (and an attack that hits Reflex).
 

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It's technically all attributes, but I thought genius Ryan was silly (or worse...charismatic Ryan ). Considering it costs an action, that I could be using to Corrode somebody or do something else cool, it's pretty balanced and rules legal.

Actually Kenson said that Boost is the most broken/easily unbalanced power in MnM and that it should be strictly limited because it provides huge cost savings when used to increase multiple traits especially in conjunction with slow fade. That statement wasn't even considering the use of it as an AP for 1 pp.

The thing about boost is that it can create a character who hits the PL caps in pretty much every single way creating a character with no weaknesses. It also allows a character to be expert in most any skill without needing to permanently invest the skill points like non-boosters do. Kelly made extensive use of APs, but they all served the same role, the offensive role. She had pretty glaring weak points as a counter balance to her strengths, a Will Save of +0, she could be caught without her defenses up and she'd be totaled (as exhibited by just about everyone :p)

I mean you can just look at the sidebars and errata on powers to see which are considered to be unbalanced at a certain cost. Corrosion was raised to 3pp/rank. Drain became a staged effect where each pt you failed the save by is another PP drained up to drains full rank. Aura became a +3 extra by requiring buying powers up to sustained, and Kenson flat out said:

Steve Kenson said:
Boost poses two primary concerns in play. The first is the campaign’s
power level limits. Generally, the GM shouldn’t allow Boost to improve
the heroes’ traits beyond these limits. The second is using Boost to
improve all or a significant portion of a subject’s traits at once for a
bargain price. Gamemasters should be cautious about allowing this
type of Boost. Heroes who rely on some outside source of power,
occasionally losing their powers rather than having them fade over
time, should consider the Power Loss drawback instead.

Steve Kenson said:
The most problematic individual effect in M&M is likely Boost, as
the section on Buffing Effects earlier in this book shows. Boost is
troublesome largely because it’s difficult to balance...

...Boost is at its most troublesome when either at its highest level
(able to Boost all of a character’s traits at once) or when usable on
virtually anyone.

This isn't reallly meant as an attack on Ryan so much as to point out that just because something is in the rules doesn't mean it can't be very broken, nor does it mean that something not in the rules is automatically broken.
 
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Kenson just hates Boost because he was picked on in high school by a bunch of supervillains with Boost. :)

I agree that an all traits Boost, or some kind of crazy area Boost, would be damn powerful, which is why the sidebar warns against that kind of stuff. Interestingly, there's no such warning on Duplicate, which would be the "most likely to be broken" power of my choice. One character that I have always wanted to play would be a duplicator though (but a traditional comic book without attack powers).

I'm unfamiliar was the errata of which you speak...the most current stuff (Feb 13, 2007) mentions nothing about the cost of Corrosion, Drain, or Aura. This might be Ultimate Power stuff that I'm unfamiliar with, but I don't really believe in paying for errata.

Having an attack that keys off on an opposed skill roll is unprecedented, since even things like Feint offer a choice of Will or Sense Motive. This is just my opinion as someone interested in the mechanics of the rules and how things fit together. Ultimately, however, my opinion isn't really important (and we aren't going to change the other's mind), since it's Toki's call about the power. I just hope that the Medicine poison guy or Escape Artist snare guy don't get me. :)
 

I actually like poisoner based on the mediciene skill, it makes sense conceptually, and its not like its as unbalancing as boost or Summon/Dupplication with Horde.

Same with Sense Motive vs Bluff, it makes sense conceptually and its not overpowered, weird or not, and other opposed checks serve as a good precedent.

Look at what the power would be if it was as normal:
An equal PL character has only a 20% chance of failing saving throw, meaning that 80% of the time Clover's power fails and she has to make a save or Lose all her actions (and possibly defense bonus) untill she eventually makes the save. Even without the stunning a character's main power that fails 80% of the time against equal PL foes and would do worse against higher PL ones seems more like the Legion of Substitute Heros (that was actually a funny cartoon by the way)

HH, look again at the errata for Aura
It says add the word sustained between 'range' and 'power'. It changes the meaning of the sentence to what Kenson has said was always intended, and has clarified in further products: "A touch range sustained power with this extra automatically affects anyone touching you..."

meaning that before you can add the +1 aura extra the power must be touch ranged and sustained. Strike is already touch ranged, but its an instant so to apply aura you first have to buy Duration up to sustained. So aura really is a +3 extra, people have just played with it as a +1 since the word sustained was left out making the meaning unclear. I made the same mistake with Kelly since I just saw the +1 on the heading like 1E and assumed it was the same until someone pointed it out to me. It does come out more balanced that way, I mean Aura pretty much garauntees its user 2 free auto hits at full PL damage per turn against another melee character, a little too good considering thats the same cost per rank as the strike power itself (or the quickness power).

As to the errata on Drain and Corrosion, I think they said that it will be in the 3rd printing of the core rules currently being shipped, but maybe not. I actually think that errata over nerfs drain since odds are an opponent will only ever barely fail the save and that in frequently so they'll never see the full effect of the drain power execpt against maybe mooks. The corrosion change was just the addition of a +1 extra to allow you to affect both objects with the power (in addition to living things), the same extra was tacked onto Disintegrate, but that change was really unneccessary with the change to regular drain.

Either way aura was the biggie since it can totally shut down non-tank melee fighters.
 
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IIRC, the most current errata on Aura changes it so that the power has to be bought to sustained, which increases the cost for Strike Auras by +2. IMO, this change is pretty stupid. I think a Strike Aura is far more balanced than Emotional Control Aura (which costs less than Strike or Quickness), since attacking odd saves is usually the way to go. But which one gets the cost increase? Another potential problem with Aura is that it's PL based, but still uses attack rolls to deliver its effect.

Corrosion/Disintegrate gets a cost increase for its ability to drain the toughness of objects and other things immune to Fort. For pure combat against living things, the cost doesn't need to change; affects objects could be flawed out without impacting killiness. Besides, Ryan actually has left over points in the corrosion slot of his array.

An equal PL character has only a 20% chance of failing saving throw, meaning that 80% of the time Clover's power fails and she has to make a save or Lose all her actions (and possibly defense bonus) untill she eventually makes the save. Even without the stunning a character's main power that fails 80% of the time against equal PL foes and would do worse against higher PL ones seems more like the Legion of Substitute Heros (that was actually a funny cartoon by the way)

I think the assumption of max saves is inaccurate. Generally speaking, a save at PL is pretty good. Ryan is at +15 boosted, Clover is a +11, Mark is at +10, and Anika is at +9. And some characters have +3 or +4. Even characters with good Will are generally looking at ~ 45% to fail - unless they HP.

And you didn't have to take one of the crappy flaws.

Staged Drain hasn't shown up in the errata, and other UP "fixes" haven't shown up either (even the Aura change is different between the errata and UP), so it's probably not doing to change. And I agree that that change is overly harsh. Making Drain remove points instead of ranks is a good enough fix for most things, I think.

It should always have been an option. A saving throw DC is equal to an opposed throw where the attacker takes 10. Having people shrug off a PL level power until they roll a crappy save isn't very heroic, especially when fiat to reroll garauntees they save. Sometimes you just have to succeed.

I don't really agree that heroic equals picking when you want to win. You can already gain an advantage via gaining +2 ranks from extra effort - sure, it's not as good as the same HP spent defensively. But MM already tends toward 1 shot, so I think stronger defensive hero points are an important system balance. Similarly, the whole point of having core saving throws is to limit the types of defenses to a reasonable number.

BTW, care to explain how the full version of XTREME EFFORT!!!! differs the from the supervision version:

Extra effort and hero points allow characters to accomplish a lot. However, there are those times when even extra effort isn’t enough and extraordinary effort is called for. In these cases, you may wish to use the following option.

Once per adventure (more or less at the GM’s discretion) a player can decide to use extraordinary effort. The player may spend any or all of the character’s remaining hero points as well as up to three fatigue results (which renders a normal character unconscious). These can apply to any of their normal uses, and the benefits stack. So a hero who uses extraordinary effort, expending three hero points and suffering two fatigue results, can apply five levels of extra effort to a task. The player cannot spend hero points (if there are any remaining) to offset the fatigue from extraordinary effort.

Ryan could honestly slaughter the entire rest of the group without much effort

Well maybe. In terms of a straight up fight, however, I think he'd have to mostly have to win via mobility kill. If he takes out Anika and Gilden, he'll have unmatched aerial speed (at least amongst the PCs; Kal and Aya are equal or better flyers) and would be able to rain down area blasts from far beyond the effective range of other characters. Otherwise, the weight of actions would bear him down - everybody rolls poorly eventually. And if the other characters are opening the fight, he loses most of his saves. Cassie winning init and using her freaking Stunning Attack feat (hint, hint) would be nasty. I think Anika and Gilden might have better chances since Possession and Mind Control can really even the odds, and their invisibility improves their attacks and defenses. Going at maximum brutality (not usually the case, fortunately), both of them are pretty nasty.

But really, in my game I wouldn't allow Ryan or Kelly without alterations. Toki is far more permissive than me. It's kind of like the pot calling the kettle black - you both tend to abuse the rules, so stop argueing about who does it better (or worse, depending on how you look at things).
 
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Last Ditch Effort which is what Kelly used is the same thing as Extraordinary Effort in supervision, it just puts the damage conditions on the table Staggered, Disabled, Dying, Dead.

I wouldn't actually consider Cassie stunning Ryan a likely event, she gets 1 shot before he flys away (or brings up his +11 aura) and with 5 hps, odds are against him staying that way.

I'll agree that Kelly used a lot of APs, and that she probably was overpowered albeit wth a lot of weaknesses to be exploited. What would you do as a GM to Kelly and Ryan before you would allow them in a game?
 
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UPDATE on Clover:

I dropped Master Plan and lowered her tactics skill by 10 ranks since the skill has no rules use beyond flavor. I dropped the quickness on tactics. I got rid of the skill vs skill issue on the drain and made it just a regular will save(even if it doesn't make sense), and dropped the stun side-effect because although it makes sense conceptually, at DC 20 saves for the opponent its suicide mechanically.

As it stands now, this is the Power:

Drain (All Skills) +10 [ Perception Range(+2), Will Save (0); Combat Skills only (-1), Full Action (-1); Slow Fade (1) 1pp/min, subtle; Linked Power: Luck Control(3pp); 25pp +2 AP]
Luck Control [Only on Saves vs Clover's Drain(-2), Enhanced Luck 4(only Luck Control (-1)]

Description: By spending a full round action Clover forces a DC 20 will save. The first 4 times per story that she does, the opponent must roll the save twice and take the worst roll. Thats about as close as I can get to what I want.
 



This is the fully updated and hopefully final version of Clover for Approval

Code Name: Insight
Name: Clover Hughes
Sex: Female
Age: 17
DOB: July 20th, 1997
POB: London, England
Height: 5’ 7"
Weight: 145 lbs

PL 10 155pp/155pp

Trade Off Stats:
Defense Max: 12 (+2) Toughness Max: 8(-2)
Attack Max: 12(+2) Damage Max: 8(-2)

HP: 4

ABILITIES: (22)
STR 14 +2
DEX 18 +4
CON 14 +2
INT 14 +2
WIS 10
CHA 12[24] +1[+7]

SAVES (25)
DMG +8 (7 Flat)
FORT +10
REF +11
WILL +10

INIT +8
MOVEMENT
SPEED 100/200/400

COMBAT: 28
BASE DEF 7; DEF 22, (Uncanny Dodge)
BASE ATT 7; MELEE +8(Unarmed +12), RANGED +7
Unarmed +12 to hit (+8 damage, crit on 18-20)

SKILLS: 17
Bluff [17/10] * Attractive = +21
Climb [4/2]
Diplomacy [12/5] * Attractive = +17
Knowledge(civics) [5/3]
Knowledge(current events) [4/2]
Knowledge(Tactics) [5/3]
Notice [15/15]
Sense Motive [15/15]
Stealth [12/8]
Survival [2/2]

FEATS: 31
All Out Attack, Assesment, Attack Focus (Melee) 1, Attack Specialiation (unarmed) 2, Attractive 1, Contacts, Defensive Attack, Defensive Roll 2, Dodge Focus 5, Equipment 3(15 EP), Evasion 2, Improved Init (1), Luck (3), Power Attack, Rapid Feint, Set Up, Skill Mastery 1 [Bluff, Notice, Sense Motive, Stealth], Teamwork 2, Uncanny Dodge(Visual)

EQUIPMENT: 3 EP Unused
Combat Gloves (Strike) +4 (Mighty, Subtle)
Reinforced Clothing (Protection) +5 (Subtle)

POWERS:
Drain (All Skills) +10 [ Perception Range(+2), Will Save (0); Combat Skills only (-1), Full Action (-1); Slow Fade (1) 1pp/min, subtle; Linked Power: Luck Control(3pp); 25pp +2 AP]
Luck Control [Only on Saves vs Clover's Drain(-2), Enhanced Luck 4(only Luck Control (-1)]
-AP: Mimic (All Elite Powers, 3pp/rank) +5 [Perception; 5pp/rank] [copy 25 pp of powers]
-AP: Mind Reading +10 (Move Action; Surface Thoughts only; subtle 2) & Enhanced Charisma + 12

Speed +1 (1pp) [Training]
Strike +2 (Mighty, Improved Critical 2; 5pp) [Training]
 
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