Generic Dragons Stats (1st Draft)

[Kaodi]

These are kind of experimental, to see what a generic dragon might or ought to look like, using the white dragon as the basis. A couple of abilities, like the breath weapon and frightful presence have been modified a bit for the standards for a true dragon, and a few other abilities are also different. Otherwise, there is a big change in the stats for both younger and older dragons compared to the linear progression of the ones in the SRD. I have no numbers for CR or LA. Also, so far just Wyrmling to Adult. If anyone is actually interested, I will put up the rest.

Generic Dragon
Type: Dragon
Environment: Temperate and warm hills and mountains
Organization: Wyrmling, very young, young, juvenile, and young adult: solitary or clutch (2-5); adult, mature adult, old, very old, ancient, wyrm, or great wyrm: solitary, pair, or family (1-2 and 2-5 offspring)
Challenge Rating: Wyrmling n; very young n; young n; juvenile n; young adult n; adult n; mature adult n; old n; very old n; ancient n; wyrm n; great wyrm n
Treasure: Triple standard
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: Wyrmling 2-3 HD; very young 5-6 HD; young 8-9 HD; juvenile 11-12 HD; young adult 14-15 HD; adult 17-18 HD; mature adult 20-21 HD; old 23-24 HD; very old 26-27 HD; ancient 29-30 HD; wyrm 32-33 HD; great wyrm 35+ HD
Level Adjustment: Wyrmling +n; very young +n; young +n; juvenile +n; others —
Dragons can be of any colour or shade, but the most common are green, red, black and gold.

Wyrmling
Size T; Hit Dice (hp): 1d12+1 (7); Str 5, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 4, Wis 13, Cha 6; Base Attack/Grapple +1/-10; Attack +0; Fort Save +3, Ref Save +4, Will Save +3; Speed 30 ft., climb 10 ft., fly 50 ft. (clumsy), swim 30 ft.; Initiative +2 ;AC 15 (+2 size, +2 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 13; SR 1

Very Young
Size S; Hit Dice (hp) 4d8+12 (32); Str 11, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 4, Wis 13, Cha 8; Base Attack/Grapple +4/+0; Attack +5; Fort Save +6, Ref Save +6, Will Save +5; Speed 40 ft., climb 10 ft., fly 100 ft. (poor), swim 40 ft.; Initiative +2; AC 17 (+1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 15; Special Abilities Fire restistance 5; SR 4

Young
Size M; Hit Dice (hp) 7d12+21 (63); Str 17, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 6, Wis 13, Cha 10; Base Attack/Grapple +7/+10; Attack +10; Fort Save +8, Ref Save +6, Will Save +6; Breath Weapon (DC) 3d6 (16); Speed 50 ft., climb 20 ft., fly 150 ft. (average), swim 50 ft.; Initiative +1; AC 18 (+1 Dex, +7 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 17; Special Abilities DR 1/-, DR 2/adamantine or dragonbane, fire resistance 10; SR 7

Juvenile
Size M; Hit Dice (hp) 10d12+40 (112); Str 21, Dex 12, Con 19, Int 6, Wis 13, Cha 12; Base Attack/Grapple +10/+15; Attack +15; Fort Save +11, Ref Save +8, Will Save +8; Breath Weapon (DC) 5d6 (19); Speed 50 ft., climb 20 ft., fly 150 ft. (average), swim 50 ft.; Initiative +1; AC 21 (+1 Dex, +10 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 20; Special Abilities DR 2/-, DR 4/adamantine or dragonbane; SR 10

Young Adult
Size L; Hit Dice (hp) 13d12+65 (143); Str 25, Dex 12, Con 21, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 14; Base Attack/Grapple +13/+24; Attack +19; Fort Save +13, Ref Save +9, Will Save +9; Breath Weapon (DC) 7d6 (21); Speed 60 ft., climb 30 ft., fly 200 ft. (average), swim 60 ft.; Initiative +1; AC 23 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +13 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 23; Special Abilities DR 3/-, DR 6/adamantine or dragonbane, fire resistance 15; SR 13

Adult
Size L; Hit Dice (hp) 16d12+96 (192); Str 27, Dex 12, Con 23, Int 8, Wis 15, Cha 16; Base Attack/Grapple +16/+28; Attack +23; Fort Save +16, Ref Save +11, Will Save +12; Breath Weapon (DC) 9d6 (24); Frightful Presence DC 16; Speed 60 ft., climb 30 ft., fly 200 ft. (average), swim 60 ft.; Initiative +1; AC 26 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +16 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 25; Special Abilities DR 4/-, DR 8/adamantine or dragonbane; SR 16

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

These are kind of experimental, to see what a generic dragon might or ought to look like, using the white dragon as the basis. A couple of abilities, like the breath weapon and frightful presence have been modified a bit for the standards for a true dragon, and a few other abilities are also different. Otherwise, there is a big change in the stats for both younger and older dragons compared to the linear progression of the ones in the SRD. I have no numbers for CR or LA. Also, so far just Wyrmling to Adult. If anyone is actually interested, I will put up the rest.

I guess my only question is: what is your guiding standard for what a generic dragon 'might or ought' to look like? Averaging out the MM dragons? Realism? Game balance? Something else?

I myself have statted out my own generic dragon, among other monsters, here. My guiding standard is a consistent average of the MM chromatic dragons, by CR rather than age category which is just a flavor thing.

 

[Kaodi]

I would say that it was to make something a little more " realistic " , and perhaps to hew a little closer to the basic idea of the dragon as a big, fire-breathing " lizard " . Hence no spellcasting, though unlike some I am not opposed to spellcasting dragons. On the side of realism, I thought that wyrmlings should be weak, weak enough to be killed one on one with your average warrior. But, that is why they do have massive strength gains in the first few categories, because they grow quickly. At the other end of the spectrum, while the older dragons keep getting bigger and stronger, their constitution actually starts going down, ending at 21 for the wyrm and greatwyrm from a peak of 25 for the mature adult. I had some other ideas for abilities too, like acidic spit, weather control and things like free deafening roar and tempest breath feats, as well as an earthquake ability, but I left those out of this draft. Also, the wyrm has a fire resistance of 30, and the great wyrm of 50, so that using their breath weapon on rival dragons is not as effective, but not completely useless either. Frightening presence was cut down to 5 + 1/2 HD + Cha because with the older wyrms extremely hefty charisma modifiers, it was perhaps getting a little out of hand. No breath weapon at youngest ages because I didn't think they ought to be able to breath right out of the shell.

In any case, they are not an average of the chromatics. The sizes are the same as the white dragon, the strength for the wyrmling I got from looking at the strength of a cat of the same size and adding 2, then I used my own progression from there. Same way I decided to give the wyrmlings the same dexterity modifier as a cat. I don't think I completely derived any of the stats from the white dragon, though. In terms of challenge, I was hoping that the oldest of these would be a more suitable challenge for a non-epic party than their RAW counterparts. Also, I guess I should explain the DR I gave them. Initially, my thought was to give them just DR/dragonbane, as a flavour issue, but dragonbane weapons of course already do +2d6 damage. The DR N/- is to foil the extra damage a bit so that the damage done will be closer to the pure damage of the weapon. But since their damage resistance is also supposed to be because of the extreme hardness of their scales, I thought that adamantine ought to overcome at least some it. If that makes any sense at all.

This was mostly an experiment because of the discussion currently going on about the kind of dragons there are going to be in 4e. When they first showed the picture of the four adventurers and the green dragon, I was really hopeful that 4e was going to kill the sacred cow of colour coded dragons, but it was not to be. Not that I despise the coloured ones, but I think that there are other, vastly superior distinctions that could be made. Instead though of just averaging out the dragons, though, I thought I might try to make something a little bit different, to see what people thought of it. Ideally, I would try to add in some 4e style powers and rituals perhaps as well, to give it more options.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Okay, realism is nice goal. Unfortunately, it's hard to critique a bunch of game stats from the realism perspective, as d&d's game stats are just so abstract. For example, I'm sure you've seen a thread or two about how much difference there is between Int 10 and Int 18 or whatever. Nobody can ever agree on any of that stuff. The only good question I can come up with is why would a dragon's Con go down as it ages?

 

[Kaodi]

Well, for the same reason most others do... I would suggest that while they continue to grow and get stronger, that does not mean that their bodies must necessarily work any better or more efficiently than when they were younger. Does it not strike you as strange that a dragon dies for no apparent reason at the very apex of its health?

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Ah, so you're dropping that particular dragon assumption. That does make things a bit more realistic.

 

[Kaodi]

I will put up the rest of the stats, just not tonight. I would of put up the tables but I do not know to make them format properly, so I am left typing out everything by hand, which can take a fair chunk of time.

 

[Kaodi]

Mature Adult
Size H; Hit Dice (hp) 19d12+133 (247); Str 29, Dex 12, Con 25, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 18; Base Attack/Grapple +19/+36; Attack +26; Fort Save +18, Ref Save +12, Will Save +13; Breath Weapon (DC) 11d6 (26); Frightful Presence DC 18; Speed 60 ft., climb 30 ft., fly 200 ft. (poor), swim 60 ft.; Initiative +1; AC 28 (-2 size, +1 Dex, +19 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 27; Special Abilities DR 5/-, DR 10/adamantine or dragonbane, fire resistance 20; SR 19

Old
Size H; Hit Dice (hp) 22d12+132 (264); Str 31, Dex 10, Con 23, Int 12, Wis 17, Cha 20; Base Attack/Grapple +22/+40; Attack +30; Fort Save +19, Ref Save +13, Will Save +16; Breath Weapon (DC) 13d6 (27); Frightful Presence DC 21; Speed 60 ft., climb 30 ft., fly 200 ft. (poor), swim 60 ft.; Initiative +0; AC 30 (-2 size, +22 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 30; Special Abilities DR 6/-, DR 12/adamantine or dragonbane; SR 22

Very Old
Size H; Hit Dice (hp) 25d12+150 (300); Str 33, Dex 10, Con 23, Int 12, Wis 17, Cha 22; Base Attack/Grapple +25/+44; Attack +34; Fort Save +20, Ref Save +14, Will Save +17; Breath Weapon (DC) 15d6 (28); Frightful Presence DC 23; Speed 60 ft., climb 30 ft., fly 200 ft. (poor), swim 60 ft.; Initiative +0; AC 33 (-2 size, +25 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 33; Special Abilities DR 7/-, DR 14/adamantine or dragonbane, fire resistance 25; SR 25

Ancient
Size H; Hit Dice (hp) 28d12+168 (336); Str 35, Dex 10, Con 23, Int 14, Wis 19, Cha 24; Base Attack/Grapple +28/+48; Attack +38; Fort Save +22, Ref Save +16, Will Save +20; Breath Weapon (DC) 17d6 (30); Frightful Presence DC 26; Speed 60 ft., climb 30 ft., fly 200 ft. (poor), swim 60 ft.; Initiative +0; AC 36 (-2 size, +28 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 36; Special Abilities DR 8/-, DR 16/adamantine or dragonbane; SR 28

Wyrm
Size G; Hit Dice (hp) 31d12+155 (341); Str 37, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 14, Wis 21, Cha 26; Base Attack/Grapple +31/+56; Attack +40; Fort Save +22, Ref Save +17, Will Save +22; Breath Weapon (DC) 19d6 (30); Frightful Presence DC 28; Speed 60 ft., climb 30 ft., fly 250 ft. (clumsy), swim 60 ft.; Initiative +0; AC 37 (-4 size, +31 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 37; Special Abilities DR 9/-, DR 18/adamantine or dragonbane, fire resistance 30; SR 31

Great Wyrm
Size G; Hit Dice (hp) 34d12+170 (374); Str 39, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 16, Wis 23, Cha 28; Base Attack/Grapple +34/+60; Attack +44; Fort Save +24, Ref Save +19, Will Save +25; Breath Weapon (DC) 21d6 (32); Frightful Presence DC 31; Speed 60 ft., climb 30 ft., fly 250 ft. (clumsy), swim 60 ft.; Initiative +0; AC 40 (-4 size, +34 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 40; Special Abilities DR 10/-, DR 20/adamantine or dragonbane, fire resistance 50; SR 34