George R.R. Martin novel news

[Vocenoctum]

Arya has not been involved in sexual situations in her PoV chapters. She is still prepubescent. She was at a whore hourse, but the Hound spared her from any impact from that.

That's my point. She's 10ish in the series, and yet almost all of her scene's have someone having sex, usually rape, sometimes not directly seen, but in Book 3, it's there an awful lot.

Mind you, it's been a while, and I'm not rereading it to justify that, but I remember the feeling sticking with me.

 

[Thanee]

Perhaps the coolest news is that ADwD is half-finished already. So that should be out after Feast in record time

Yeah, like only 3 years this time...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Steel_Wind]

What did it for me was the scene in A Storm of Swords when (spoiler text, don't highlight if you have a weak stomach) Jaime Lannister has sex with his sister (who happens to be on her period at the time) on the alter in a church.

I'd been put off by some of the sex scenes described in the book prior to that, but that particular scene almost made me quit the entire series in disgust.

I saw nothing profane or erotic about the scene. It made sense in the context in which it was delivered. I really don't see why or how "a weak stomach" enters into your quote at all.

I expect that sex and menstruation is something that all adults - the target audience - are familiar with.

It is scenes like this that break the cookie cutter elements of traditional fantasy and make GRRM's work stronger - not weaker.

 

[Vocenoctum]

It is scenes like this that break the cookie cutter elements of traditional fantasy and make GRRM's work stronger - not weaker.

While others of us find such scene's overused and excessive. Different strokes for different folks and all. It comes down to the age old question of whether such elements add more sales than they subtract.

Tracy Hickman (IIRC) in Annotated DL Chronicles called it the "boots scene" (or something), referencing Star Trek, where Kirk would have sex with some alien or another. You'd see Kirk getting really close, then flash to Spock & Bones talking about something, then return to Kirk putting on his boots.

I'm not saying adult situations have no place in the novels, but I feel it's excessiveness detracts from the story itself.

 

[Steel_Wind]

While others of us find such scene's overused and excessive. Different strokes for different folks and all. It comes down to the age old question of whether such elements add more sales than they subtract.

Tracy Hickman (IIRC) in Annotated DL Chronicles called it the "boots scene" (or something), referencing Star Trek, where Kirk would have sex with some alien or another. You'd see Kirk getting really close, then flash to Spock & Bones talking about something, then return to Kirk putting on his boots.

I'm not saying adult situations have no place in the novels, but I feel it's excessiveness detracts from the story itself.

Except for the fact that:

1 - the mores of American TV are designed with the FCC and children in mind - A Song of Ice and Fire is aimed at adults;

2- the DragonLance Chronicles were written with a primarily adolescent audience in mind, and a Song of Ice and Fire is aimed at adults;

3 - Tracy Hickman is a practicing Mormon who is on record as being appalled by the Book of Vile Darkness and other sexual situations and outright acts of evil being depicted in a game world or novel - whereas GRRM is a committed, left of centre agnostic who does not share Mr. Hickman's values, sensitivities or world perspective.

The sales records and the intense interest in GRRM's series indicate that cookie-cutter bowdlerized fantasy is not what GRRM's target audience seeks.

There is nothing excessive in GRRM's series. I fear your senstivities are attuned to a much lower level than mine. More to the point - a much lower level than the audience GRRM is writing for.

 

[jasamcarl]

This is one of only two fantasy series i've ever read, and if the thematically appropriate sex scenes in this here are out of the norm of the genre, i'm glad for it.

There are very few scenes that can be described as 'erotic' in any of the books according to my recollection. Of course, I'm sure they are meant to be pleasurable to many of the characters involved, but from the perspective of the majority of the p.o.v. characters, it comes off as trivial and mundane. The aformentioned scene with the Lannister siblings in the church made perfect scence given that 1) they had not seen each other in some time and 2) they don't really believe in the sanctity of the church or really any other institution in a realm obviously more beholdent to the complimentary ideals of family and power than to any sense of a true public welfare/virtue or law; they are realists/cynics, as pretty much most of the major 'villians' in the series are. A crappier pulp author would have used a pretentious narrative to outline this and skip past the actual scene, but I think its a virtue that Martin shows as oppossed to tells.

As to the rape, he certainly doesn't endorse it, but nor does he judge it. Nor should he because the society he is depicting doesn't really do so. Again, show instead of tell and hope the readers get the subtext. I common place nature of rape is consistent with the themes of gender, class, and general status that are laced throughout the story and is IMO a much more important part of 'world building' than geography or a fantastical history because it gives the series texture.

By the way, I'm glad to see the next book is done. It's my favorite guilty pleasure read and I've already wish listed it on amazon.

 

[KaosDevice]

There is nothing excessive in GRRM's series. I fear your senstivities are attuned to a much lower level than mine. More to the point - a much lower level than the audience GRRM is writing for.

I've got to agree with Steel here, there is nothing about SoFaI that is intended really for anyone under the age of 17 if we were going to go by current movie standards. The Dragonlance books seemed definite PG-13 fare to me. I think comparing those two is really an apples and oranges affair. I think the sales statistics of GRRM's books definitely proves there is a market for adult themed fantasy (or, well to go all the way back to Norman's Gor books to invoke the past.)

 

[Zaukrie]

I'm excited we'll get a new book this year. I really enjoy these books.

As for the sex, Guy Kay Gavriel, my favorite author right now, has a few scenes you may want to skip, as they are even more graphic than these. Also, I'm sure some would need to skip books from Mercedes Lackey, as I remember a few scenes that would shock some people.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Except for the fact that:

1 - the mores of American TV are designed with the FCC and children in mind - A Song of Ice and Fire is aimed at adults;

2- the DragonLance Chronicles were written with a primarily adolescent audience in mind, and a Song of Ice and Fire is aimed at adults;

For starters, I'm 32. The Hickman quote was part of my attempt to illustrate that sexual situations can be present without being overt and excessive. As the saying goes "why is so much that is labeled Adult, usually so immature?"

3 - Tracy Hickman is a practicing Mormon who is on record as being appalled by the Book of Vile Darkness and other sexual situations and outright acts of evil being depicted in a game world or novel - whereas GRRM is a committed, left of centre agnostic who does not share Mr. Hickman's values, sensitivities or world perspective.

The sales records and the intense interest in GRRM's series indicate that cookie-cutter bowdlerized fantasy is not what GRRM's target audience seeks.

It's a bit random really, since there's no way to know if the people driven away by the excessive sexual situations are outnumbered by those encouraged by them. I won't drag religion into it, but perhaps you're failing to see that otehrs view points don't mesh with yours?

There is nothing excessive in GRRM's series. I fear your senstivities are attuned to a much lower level than mine. More to the point - a much lower level than the audience GRRM is writing for.

My sensitivities are no lower. They are different. And I didn't lose interest in the books because of the sexual scene's gratuitously planted in every chapter, even those of the 10 year old. It was however one of the things that contributed to my feeling "done" with the books once I finished the trilogy. I'd say you need a refresher on public discussion if the only way to defend the novel is to call people's sensitivities "lower".
Heck, especially given that if I WAS more senstitive, it'd be higher, or something!

You think the sexual situations add to the book, I feel they detract from the book. A difference of opinion.

 

[Zaukrie]

I will say I'm not sure they actually add anything to the book. But, I think they are a great marketing gimick, because people feel they are reading "adult" fantasy, instead of kid fantasy. That isn't a slam on anyone, but trust me, that stuff is used to sell the books to adults. I could live without the scenes, I can certainly live with them.