Gestalting

[Dice4Hire]

No. I have said repeatedly something different. {It helps to go back through the thread and follow the arguments instead of just jumping on the last statement}.

Getting hot under the collar, aren't we?

I did read all of your posts, where you say the same thing over and over again. No need to reply to all, the last will do.

 

[irdeggman]

Are you saying that a Wizard//Barbarian can be literate because the Illiteracy class feature says that it applies to Barbarians only?

-- N

I am saying they can be literate because the read language skill says all classes except for barbarians are literate and that the barbarian/wizard gestalt class is not a barbarian but a class that has abilites of a barbarian.

and

This is a class ability and not a class restriction (unlike multi-class restirction, alignment or code of conduct are). Classs and ability based restrictions specifically apply per UA regardless of class combos.

 

[Dice4Hire]

The paladin/sorcerer would be restricted from taking paladin/sorcerer levels if taking levels in a different "class" (excluding the introduction of house-rules or the ascetic feats)

I did not think you would understand my argument. I'll simplify

The paladin restriction applies to any non-paladin class

You are arguing that Paladin-sorcerer is not a paladin class (actually every combination is a new class, not one of its components) so by your logic it is a hybrid class.

Thus you cannot take a third level of paladin/anything as you missed taking a paladin class last level. Maybe even second, if you violate the no non-paladin class the same level you pick up the restriction, but that is even stranger, so I will let that drop.


That is your argument as you have presented it. But I expect you will ignore this and keep asserting randomly.

 

[Nifft]

I am saying they can be literate because the read language skill says all classes except for barbarians are literate and that the barbarian/wizard gestalt class is not a barbarian but a class that has abilites of a barbarian.

The Read Language section isn't the most relevant text on the subject, so drop that argument. The Barbarian's entry is the primary source for Barbarian abilities. You can't get around this in any way.

However, the Barbarian's Illiteracy class feature does call out the class "Barbarian" specifically by name. Are you asserting that this is the reason why the class feature only applies to the class Barbarian, and not to Wizard//Barbarian?

Thanks, -- N

 

[Nifft]

I did not think you would understand my argument. [...] But I expect you will ignore this and keep asserting randomly.

Now, now. No need for that.

Cheers, -- N

PS: Delete the personal attacks and I'll make this a double-post complaint.

 

[irdeggman]

As promised I tried to lay out what the differences are between gestalt and multi-classing.


Gestalt class versus multi-classing

HD – best of the classes being combined. {This is different than multi-classing since you get both hit die which increases the ECL of the character}

BAB –best of the classes being combined. {This is different than multi-classing since you add both classes’ BAB to find out the character’s BAB}

Saving Throws – combine best of both classes being combined {This is different than multi-classing since you add both classes’ saving throws to find out the character’s BAB}

Weapon and armor proficiencies - combine both classes being combined weapons and armor proficiencies. {This is the same as multi-classing}

Class Skills – all skills of each class are treated as class skills {This is different than multi-classing. While both are considered class skills for max rank purposes, determining the cost (i.e. whether they cost 1 sp/rank or 2 sp/rank)

Skill points – best of both of the classes being combined. {This is different than multi-classing since you treat each level as different.}

Class abilities – character gets all class abilities of both classes being combined, except for those that are the same (e.g., uncanny dodge, turn, etc.) which advance at the best rate. {This is different than multi-classing since each advances independently, unless otherwise specified (like uncanny dodge)}

Class requisites (or prerequisites) – must be met for each class being combined regardless of the other class. {This is the same as multi-classing.}

Class restrictions – apply regardless of what the combination is. {This is the same as multi-classing. (Whether the gestalt is treated as a “single” class or not is moot for this comparison, although if treated as a “single” class it would make it different.)


So of 9 different parts:

3 are very different (HD, BAB and saving throws)

3 are at least slightly different (that is not the same) (Class skills, skill points and class abilities)

3 are the same (weapon and armor proficiencies, class requisites and restrictions).

So the question is how many similarities are required to consider something "similar" or "mostly" different?

 

[irdeggman]

Alright in order to keep things civil (and polite) - let's assume that the illiteracy issue is a problem with my view point.

So we have found exactly one correct?

The rest of the approach works just about perfectly in adjucation of the gestalt system.

How about issues with treating it a a multi-classing system?

How many are there?

How many "exceptions" are required to make it work?

Let's see a real comparison here so we can see which system actually makes more sense.

 

[Nifft]

Alright in order to keep things civil (and polite) - let's assume that the illiteracy issue is a problem with my view point.

So we have found exactly one correct?

If we assume that you admitted the issue with Illiteracy, then you would have admitted exactly one.

Don't worry, there are more problems! But we can only explore the more subtle issues if you concede the most obvious one first.

Cheers, -- N

PS: (Although in general, even one paradox is enough to damn many a useful theory... and other than screwing Paladins, I have yet to see any use for yours.)

 

[irdeggman]

I've started thiking about that literacy thing some more.

Here is a question (and it applies to core rules):

Is literacy a class feature of every class that doesn't say they are illiterate?

Think careful on the answer here - there are lots of potential ramifications depending on the answer.

 

[Nifft]

I've started thiking about that literacy thing some more.

Here is a question (and it applies to core rules):

Is literacy a class feature of every class that doesn't say they are illiterate?

Think careful on the answer here - there are lots of potential ramifications depending on the answer.

You might want to start a new thread for this, if you think it's a particularly subtle issue. I doubt this thread has much in the way of readership left.

Then answer is: yes, for PC base classes.

NPC classes are undefined, because they are not for PCs, and Prestige Classes are undefined simply because they don't say either way. (Pesky optional rules should be better written.)

Cheers, -- N