Get Rid of All Monster HD

[Hussar]

For serious. I really wish we could stop juggling overlapping terms like level, HD, CR, LA, and ECL.

But, really, all of those things are pretty different.

Granted, level and HD are pretty close. One could certainly make the arguement there.

But CR, Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level are completely different. CR measures how difficult something is to fight against a standard of 4 PC's. Level Adjustment measures a creature's ability to influence the game as a PC. These are two entirely different elements. A Lantern Archon's ability to Aid at will is a minor ability for a combat encounter. It simply won't come up that often. As a PC though, that means the entire party is now effectively acting one level higher all the time. That's a pretty huge ability.

ECL is simply a total line for level and level adjustment.

I don't know why people seem to want to lump all these together.

 

[mmadsen]

Nah, out of the book unadvanced monsters are a boon to many DMs.

I don't think it's the unadvanced portion that's important; it's the out-of-the-book portion.

If each monster was a class, the entry could list what that monster should look like over a whole range of levels. That's almost the case with the dragons, although those entries aren't very "clean" and easy to use.

 

[gizmo33]

But that's not why I'm posting. I've discovered that since I can make a kobold a 20thlevel fighter, just about any monster's CR can be adjusted to match the party.

You've just discovered the secret to 90% of Dungeon magazine's high-level adventures.

This means that my minis quickly become inaccurate, and man that bugs men when my minis aren't accurate.

I have a few cardboard cutouts of different base sizes. If a mini increases from a 5x5 to a 10x10 base, just put the cardboard cutout underneath their miniature. Of course that doesn't solve the 3-D size problem, but IMO most movement issues are restricted to the 2-D plane anyway.

Second, monsters start to look the same as you advance them. How many variant oozes are there? Can't I make most of them with templates? How many draconic/reptilian races are there? Can't I just advance lizardfolk or given them a half-dragon template to match those other races?

Yes. And when 3E came out with the monster template idea I was hoping that it would put an end to Raveloft monster supplements with "vampiric hamster, vampiric halfling, vampiric ham-sandwich..." But I guess people need to get paid somehow.

In other words, the more I tinker with monsters, the more I'm convinced that monsters shouldn't HAVE a HD. Even the reverse can be true...lower HD monsters who are "immature" versions of the full HD critter. So why have starting HD at all?

They shouldn't have strength scores either, by that reasoning - or any other stats. What HD (and Strength) are, in the monster books, are not the stats for every single monster of that type. They're the average. Having the averages all worked out for a representative example is useful in ways I can't explain.

 

[GreatLemur]

But, really, all of those things are pretty different.

Oh, I totally agree that the differences between those things are very real. I just wish we could move to a more standardized system. I'd like to see monsters built out of levels just like PCs, basically. Monster levels, template levels, class levels, etc. If limited-use abilities are balanced on a "per encounter" rather than "per day" basis, PC levels and monster/NPC levels might actually be fairly equivalent.

This is all total pie-in-the-sky stuff, of course. I'm just dreaming about 4E, here.

 

[GreatLemur]

If each monster was a class, the entry could list what that monster should look like over a whole range of levels. That's almost the case with the dragons, although those entries aren't very "clean" and easy to use.

I don't think it'd be a bad thing if half of a given Monster Manual entry looked like a class progression table.

 

[hong]

Of course, people flamed the hell out of the MM4 partly because it had the temerity to print gnolls with fighter levels... "we can do that levelling-up work ourselves, give us some REAL monsters!"

 

[Joshua Randall]

First of all, as I advance some of these monsters, their size increases. Not always, mind you, but sometimes. It seems pretty arbitrary.

I dont' think it's arbitrary. I believe that the size category increases are a function of the monster's HD. For example, listed HD up to [2 * HD - 1] = same as listed size; [2 * HD] up to [3 * HD - 1] = next size up; etc.

So a Medium monster with 4 HD would advance: 4-7 HD, still Medium; 8-11 HD Large; 12-15 HD Huge; etc.

Something like that anyway.

 

[Kunimatyu]

Of course, people flamed the hell out of the MM4 partly because it had the temerity to print gnolls with fighter levels... "we can do that levelling-up work ourselves, give us some REAL monsters!"

I think it had more to do with new monsters + leveled monsters in one book.

I'd love to buy a book, even if it was called Monster Manual #, that had a wide array of levelled opponents. What I don't want is a mix of new monsters and levelled opponents in the same book -- it's confusing, and only halfway gets at both concepts.

 

[GreatLemur]

Of course, people flamed the hell out of the MM4 partly because it had the temerity to print gnolls with fighter levels... "we can do that levelling-up work ourselves, give us some REAL monsters!"

I might not be speaking for the majority, here, but the only reason that bugged me was because we already had gnoll stats in MM1. When I open a new Monster Manual, I want to see new monsters. I don't object to the class levels, just the re-presentation of old critters.

 

[hong]

I think it had more to do with new monsters + leveled monsters in one book.

I'd love to buy a book, even if it was called Monster Manual #, that had a wide array of levelled opponents. What I don't want is a mix of new monsters and levelled opponents in the same book -- it's confusing, and only halfway gets at both concepts.

I never had a problem with it. In the end, it's still a big, brutish opponent with a club, whether it's a foo giant or an ogre with 4 levels of fighter and 2 levels of barb. I don't see what's so confusing.