Get Rid of All Monster HD

[mmadsen]

This thread makes me think that there needs to be a lot more "fluff" to monster descriptions. The stats just tell you how to kill the monster, and there's only so many ways you can kill something, so eventually monsters do start to look all the same.

I think that far too many monsters differ in one or two hit dice, a few points of AC, etc. What differentiates monsters is whether they tend to grapple and pull you into the water, snipe at you from the trees, etc. -- things that you could see in movie or describe to someone who doesn't know the game.

 

[lukelightning]

The title of this thread sounds like an old Japanese sci-fi movie.

 

[hong]

Monster HD is friend to all children!

 

[crazy_monkey1956]

I've toyed with something similar to this in my campaign already. All humanoids with the same subtype all dwell on the same island-continent, creating a "seperated" world. Then evolution takes over. Goblinoids for example: Goblins are the primitive, unevolved types, hobgoblins are the next step in their evolution, and bugbears are evolutionary throw-backs, the neanderthal types. But, I could achieve the same result with one "goblinoid" entry in the monster manual, with a level progression attached to it. Level 1 "humanoid (goblinoid)" = goblin. Level 2 = hobgoblin. Level 4 = Bugbear. If at any point, you want to "stall" the progression and advance by a normal class, Kapow, now you have a Lvl 12 Hobgoblin fighter.

I don't think I'm stating my point clearly, but the idea here is that the basic progression can accomodate all manner of "fluff". With a "monster" class for every creature type, any manner of critter can be created at any point along the progression. A Monster Manual set up this way would spell out the progression and the abilities gained at various levels, then present several fully statted examples for "drop and play" purposes.

So, there would still be racial HD, but it would be treated more like a "monster class" than an arbitrary number assigned to the supposedly new concept. The "base race" version of each monster class could be used by players (well, except for things like oozes, animals and vermin), thus eliminating racial HD and LA for potential PC races. Wanna play a frost giant, take the base "giant" race, give it blue skin and Kapow, Frost Giant PC. Sure, he's not 17 feet tall, only 8 or so, but fitting a 17 foot tall character into most dungeons is impossible anyway. Wanna play a Drow, take the base elf stats, slap on some black skin and white hair, and Kapow, Drow PC. Sure, you don't have SR and SLAs, but you look darn cool with those scimitars.

I think I've just convinced myself to do this for my games.

Thanks to the original poster for the idea.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Actually, that's something I could get on board with. A book that gives me a series of basic monster chasis that I can start adding goodies to.

Basic models look something like: Brute, sneaky, smart. I then add on various templates to develop a new monster. Add it up, get the CR and away we go.

Unfortunately, something like that would be amazingly time consuming. If they could whack that into some sort of generator program and sell it, I'd be all over it like white on rice.

I feel pretty much exactly the same. While monster templates or classes are a great presentation, they aren't necessarily so useful in practice. Heck, I fish dragon stats out of the back of the Draconomicon to use IMC; I've never even built one of those myself! Same thing for templates; I end up using the sample creature (or a fan-created example) 90% of the time.

If, OTOH, there were some simple class-based presentations (kind of like Iron Heroes villain classes) coupled with a generator program, I'd view this as the ideal Monster Manual format.

 

[Nellisir]

Oh, I totally agree that the differences between those things are very real. I just wish we could move to a more standardized system. I'd like to see monsters built out of levels just like PCs, basically. Monster levels, template levels, class levels, etc. If limited-use abilities are balanced on a "per encounter" rather than "per day" basis, PC levels and monster/NPC levels might actually be fairly equivalent.

This is all total pie-in-the-sky stuff, of course. I'm just dreaming about 4E, here.

I've had the same dream.

More later, after work.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Monster hit dice are just levels in a monster class. It would be nice if that were made more explicit (and consistent).

You could almost make it so that each monster type is its own class, and you layer a template over that to define individual monsters.

So an orc and a goblin would both be 1st level humanoids, but with templates applied over the top of that to represent what makes them different from each other.

That way, a monster write up wouldn't have to include all the things that make the monster a humanoid, just those things that make it different from the base class. It would reduce space needed in modules and monster books, and simplify things greatly.

EDIT: I see I'm not the first to bring this up!

 

[Nellisir]

I've thought about this some. Conceptually, there are three classes - fighter, "default"/sneak, spellcaster. It wouldn't be hard to work out something for the fighter and the sneak, but the spellcaster is an issue. The best I can think is that the creature gets a certain number of spell levels per HD with which to purchase spell-like abilities, and a level cap on said abilities. I scratched out notes on the illithid and beholder, looked at the numbers, and gave up.

The other route, and probably the more practical route, is via type and individual race, similar to Savage Species. Bugbears would advance as humanoids (just like they do now), but with their abilities spelled out over their HD increases. The HD increases could top out at 2x or 3x "normal" HD; at that point the creature usually takes class levels. Standardized default increases in special abilities (including bonus feats) and stat increases above and beyond those resulting from HD increases would provide guidelines.

Weapons of Legacy has a multi-levelled approach to powers: you get access to different lists of different powers at higher levels, and can take one powerful power in lieu of three lesser ones, etc, etc. Something similar might work here.

Several of the current types could be combined - there's nearly no difference between giants and humanoids anyways. Humanoid (giant) would work just as well, or better.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

You've reminded me of an old thread of mine: Ditch Hit Dice!

 

[talien]

I've thought about this some. Conceptually, there are three classes - fighter, "default"/sneak, spellcaster. It wouldn't be hard to work out something for the fighter and the sneak, but the spellcaster is an issue. The best I can think is that the creature gets a certain number of spell levels per HD with which to purchase spell-like abilities, and a level cap on said abilities. I scratched out notes on the illithid and beholder, looked at the numbers, and gave up.

The other route, and probably the more practical route, is via type and individual race, similar to Savage Species. Bugbears would advance as humanoids (just like they do now), but with their abilities spelled out over their HD increases. The HD increases could top out at 2x or 3x "normal" HD; at that point the creature usually takes class levels. Standardized default increases in special abilities (including bonus feats) and stat increases above and beyond those resulting from HD increases would provide guidelines.

Weapons of Legacy has a multi-levelled approach to powers: you get access to different lists of different powers at higher levels, and can take one powerful power in lieu of three lesser ones, etc, etc. Something similar might work here.

Several of the current types could be combined - there's nearly no difference between giants and humanoids anyways. Humanoid (giant) would work just as well, or better.

Yes!

And to all the variants mentioend earlier...YES!

That's what I was talking about. In short, monsters are a pain in the butt to create and I'm becoming increasingly less tolerant of using new, different monsters, often with wonky combinations of powers that I don't totally understand.

If I add a template or advance a monster by giving it class levels, I know what I'm getting. If I advance a monster using the monster advancement rules, I'm basically learning a new class every time. Multiply that by the number of monsters I use (and really, I don't use that many, we fought our first dragon ever last game session) and my head explodes.