Get rid of the half-races, except halflings ;o)

[Mark Plemmons]

Why do half races exist? So players can play Elf Lite, Diet Orc, and Dragon Zero (all dragon and none of the carbs) with the same amount of shallowness as a 15-year-old bi-polar girl on expired anti-depressants and armed to the teeth with razor blades and posting YouTube videos about how the world does not understand her.

Man, I love YouTube.

 

[redkobold]

Lets not let this wander off into real world racial issues. The races, as presented in the game are "racist" in most cases though I think more recent editions have eased up on that. The old descriptions of goblins as smelly and eating feces type descriptions as well as the level limits on non-human races is suspect along the same line. All of that is past however and our game is a past time not some social critique.

That said, there is obviouly strong interest in getting rid of the half races.

If you have read this thread and not voted on the separate poll I created, please do so.

Lets see if we can have a grassroots uprising and change some of the 4e content and design direction. I do not think things are as set in stone as some may think. Until it is sent to the printers, all is in flux.

 

[mach1.9pants]

Lets add a new core race from the canon like kobold, or gith, or lizardman (like the DAT illustration from 1e, sweet), a beastman/gnoll, a bugbear, a goliath, a tiefling (oops, they got that one, good) or some other common anthropomorphic standard type.

Errm am I wrong but isn't a teifling just a half (or at least part)-infernal human? All the 'just interbreeding with humans of elves and orcs' rubbish pales into insignificance when you consider that infernals (or whatever bad outsiders are called, I can't remember) only interbreed with humans? That is ridiculous, a teifling should 100% be a template or feat that can be added/taken by any humanoid. I would prefer the half races to be a sidebar (from your poll) but at least you can have a slight bit of logic saying 'physiologically only humans can interbreed with orcs and elves'; it doesn't work/make sense with outsiders who take human form or whatever they do to reproduce with humans- it should work with other races as well. Every argument against half human races applies to planetouched even moreso:Get rid of aasimar, tieflings and genasai as distinct races, make em a template!
If, however, teiflings in 4E are not just the result of human dalliance with demons and devils (2 different things, one same offspring?- more rubbish logic) but a race with a story of their own, fine by me (I'll house rule it that way anyway )

One other thing that's always bugged me: cultural traits (like weapon familiarity or skill bonuses) being included as racial traits. I think all characters should get to choose a cultural trait based on their home or upbringing (regardless of race), and that racial traits should be limited to strictly physiological abilities (darkvision, stonecunning, ability mods).

For example, a dwarf from Bobtonia and a human from Bobtonia would both pick from the same pool of cultural traits. With perhaps the dwarf adding weapon familiarity to the list. But not every single dwarf, from every culture, should automatically have weapon familiarity.

I second that! It shouldn't be hard to divide the current racial attributes up into racial (darkvision) and cultural (proficiency with waraxe) in which the racial bits are equal for all the races and so are the cultures... alluded to in 3E PHB but should be implemented throughtout as standard with notes in the DMG on how to ceate your own cultural traits.

 

[Anthtriel]

Errm am I wrong but isn't a teifling just a half (or at least part)-infernal human? All the 'just interbreeding with humans of elves and orcs' rubbish pales into insignificance when you consider that infernals (or whatever bad outsiders are called, I can't remember) only interbreed with humans? That is ridiculous, a teifling should 100% be a template or feat that can be added/taken by any humanoid. I would prefer the half races to be a sidebar (from your poll) but at least you can have a slight bit of logic saying 'physiologically only humans can interbreed with orcs and elves'; it doesn't work/make sense with outsiders who take human form or whatever they do to reproduce with humans- it should work with other races as well. Every argument against half human races applies to planetouched even moreso:Get rid of aasimar, tieflings and genasai as distinct races, make em a template!

Well, the difference would be that Outsiders are generally not playable, so planetouched have an identity (as a PC race) of their own, whereas Half-Elves are just a mixture, thus usually lacking their own niche.

Though yeah, I wouldn't mind defining Planetouced by Ancestry Feats, for the flexibility of applying them to any race, if nothing else, but they are more deserving of a seperate write-ups than the common half-races.

 

[Syunsuke]

This is similar idea to Ancestry Feats, but...
If every racial traits are wrtten as some kind of "racial talent tree" and there is prerequirement of character level to take specific trait, you might not need separate write-up for half-races.
Say, if you are elf character, you can take "lesser elf arcana(hypothetical elf ability)" at 5th level.
If you are half elf character, you can take "lesser elf arcana" at 10th level. Your "effective elf level" is half of your character level. (And your "efective human level" is also half of your character level. You have access to human racial traits at slower pace.)

Well, probably, effective racial level should be more than half of character level(0.75 times character level or somthing). Otherwise, half-races will just suck.

Sorry about bad english.

 

[Ranger REG]

I started this new topic after reading the "mystery race" thread.

I dislike the whole half race notion and think it is a waste of space. And why do they all have to be half-human? Why not dwarf-gnomes, or elf-halflings, or dwarf-goblins? What about 1/4 races? Because it is too silly to be a significant part of the core rules.

If someone wants to play a half race, then use one of the racial halves to be the main one expressed and roleplay the rest or have some BRIEF rules (a la sidebar) for the basic core race listing features that half breeds will have or that can be exchanged with the other racial half's features.

I love orcs and I love half-orcs but I would rather have a corebook orc pc racial entry or a new race entry in the core rulebooks rather than rules for the stereotype half-orc who is ostrasized from the human community and has become a paladin to prove them all wrong or has become an assassin to prove them all right or has used his human cunning to survive and thrive in his orcish community and comes to town as a barbarian. Blah, blah, boring. Then there is the half-elf diplomat. Sick the half-orc barbarian on him.

Let's start a revolution and give the half-races the boot!

If the PHB 2 or online Dragon needs some content, that would be a good place for half race elves, ogres, orcs, and sheep.

Lets add a new core race from the canon like kobold, or gith, or lizardman (like the DAT illustration from 1e, sweet), a beastman/gnoll, a bugbear, a goliath, a tiefling (oops, they got that one, good) or some other common anthropomorphic standard type.

Alternately, what about a race that adds some twist or brings to the table some feature or roleplaying opportunity that no other races has had brought to the game like limited flight, phasing, blinking, multi-limbs, pseudopods (think Dralasites or an awakened/extraplanar ooze)? What features / roleplaying opportunities would an awakened undead (think Deadlands) type or template bring to the table?

Just my thoughts and call to arms. Am I alone?

I have to oppose you on this position.

I like having to play half-races in the game. My first PC is a half-elf. The majority of my PCs are half-elves. Since 3e, I've been playing half-orc PC (never did played it back in 1e).

In the core rules, I'd like to include half-races as PC options (personally two or three). In the Monster Manual, I'd like WotC to codify the half-breed race creation rules, so I can expand more half-race options.

 

[Driddle]

Lets not let this wander off into real world racial issues. The races, as presented in the game are "racist" in most cases though I think more recent editions have eased up on that. The old descriptions of goblins as smelly and eating feces type descriptions as well as the level limits on non-human races is suspect along the same line. All of that is past however and our game is a past time not some social critique.

There's no "wandering off" involved here. What happens at the gaming table is enacted by very real people. They bring real assumptions with them and they leave with their experiences and observations when the game is done: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=210286

I believe half-races in the game are badly designed, mechanically speaking. But I still believe they have a place in D&D.

 

[Umbran]

Ancestry Feats - take a feat to get some racial traits of one race, and qualify for special powers, feats or racial abilities further down the line

If all you want is a mixture of the two parent races traits, that works well. However if the half-race has abilities that are not present in either parent (like the half-elf bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information), that system fails.

Question - do you really think that description of these feats, and the associated powers, actually takes less space than just writing up the race? I'm looking at the SRD, and it seems that the write-up of the half-elf and half-orc is of comparable length to a feat or two. So, you aren't saving too much there.

This is the one choice for 4E that really seems plain bad to me. If the En-World legacy grognards don't like seperate half-elf write-ups (if you believe the polls), then who actually likes them anyway?

How many times need it be said? EN World does not stand as a representative sample of gamers, in general. You cannot poll EN World and get a good idea about what the market wants, as a whole.

Surely not new 3E players, as everyone learned quickly that 3E half-elves are just a waste of time.

Gamers are preceptive - they can tell the difference between something that is bad in concept, and something that is bad in implementation. 3E half-elves are arguably a waste of time, mechanically speaking. Those who were turned off for mechanical reasons have mechanics as a priority - they will look at the new mechanics, and make new judgments. The 3e version is not particularly relevant to whether they'll like them in the future.

Thus - that the 3e version of them was mechanically weak is not a reason to eliminate them from future versions. And if you don't like the flavor surrounding the race, well, there is no accounting for taste.

 

[Aldarc]

If all you want is a mixture of the two parent races traits, that works well. However if the half-race has abilities that are not present in either parent (like the half-elf bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information), that system fails.

Except that the diplomatic features of the half-elf were a forced-on mechanic to make the half-elf a more attractive option. My issue with half-races are not the mechanics, but their non-mechanical aspects.

Question - do you really think that description of these feats, and the associated powers, actually takes less space than just writing up the race? I'm looking at the SRD, and it seems that the write-up of the half-elf and half-orc is of comparable length to a feat or two. So, you aren't saving too much there.

Having them as feats makes them far more optional than having them as their own race, which is the issue. Then you can better take into account a half-elf raised by humans (human with elven heritage feat) versus a half-elf raised by elves (elf with human heritage feat). Also your perceived fault of the feat write-ups is somewhat invalid in that while two feats for the orc and elven heritage feats could take up the same amount of space as the half-orc or half-elf write up, these feats would not be necessarily exclusive to two races so with that one elven heritage feat a human, halfling, orc, or gnome could take it which allows for a greater variety of half-whatevers depending upon the campaign setting.

 

[Driddle]

re mixed-race heritage feats ... It would definitely open a lot of roleplaying opportunities.

Prereq: Character base racial type not the same as the feat.

Examples:
Half-human -- You were raised by your human parent and/or grew up in a larger human-based culture. Gain one skill point per level or one additional feat (which would be the cost of this feat itself, so that's kinda redundant) etc.
Half-elf -- You were raised by your elf parent and/or grew up in an elf-based culture. Gain one elfish thing or another from a short list, such as a minor vision bonus, +1 Dex, etc.
Half-orc -- You were raised blah blah blah ... Pick one orc element from a short list blah blah blah ...
Half-gnome -- You get the idea.

Using this idea, you could easily have a human-elf mix (ala current "half-elf" race) designed on either a human base with half-elf features, or elf base with half-human features, depending on the player's character concept. Both equally valid.