D&D 5E Getting the AD&D feel in 5th edition

[Flexor the Mighty!]

For me, I'd like to add in System Shock and Resurrection Survival. Sure they cast Raise Dead but they still have to make a CON check to survive the process. Or system shock on polymorph. Aging 1 year on use of Haste. Chance to learn spell is fine too,

 

[steeldragons]

You do realize that in 5E (with a few rare exceptions like the Moon Circle Druid), the "simple classes" are in reality the "more powerful than everybody else" classes until at least level 5 (Fireball)

I realize that is a perfectly subjective view to have. Sure. I don't realize how this has any baring on any of my recommendations.

I also realize that the whole point of the thread was asking how to get a 1e feel in 5e. So, what's the matter?

and really pretty much strong movers and shakers in a party until at least level 13 or so? In 5E, low to mid level spell casters tend to be versatile, not powerful.

Yes. That's great as far as I'm concerned!

Yes, there are a few times a day exceptions (like maybe Sleep at low level), but the simple classes shine a lot.

Which, again, is great! I'm not following where the problem is.

Really no need to gimp the casters. Do you remove the extra two attacks per round of high level fighters because none of the other martial types can attack that often? Do you drop the Paladin's AC because even with Mage Armor and multiple Shield spells, the Wizard can only get up to AC 20 a few times per day?

Uh. No. I do not. I also do not think requiring classes that we intended, in the game world, to be more rare and "harder to do" actually being "harder to do" is a bad thing.

It is a conceit of the genre, nearly since the inception of the game, that "magic-users" are odd, rare, not fully understood individuals. They are [or were since we're talking here about 1e] not, as has been hammered into the public consciousness throughout the history of the game (pretty much since 2e), intended to be found all over the place. Enforcing some minor restrictions on the class to make that happen/enforce that feel and attitude, I do not see as "gimping."

It's about enforcing a "feel" on the game and setting. Mages are unusual and more rare. Period end. Paladins are unusual and more rare. Things like Rangers and Monks, too, for that matter if we're talking 1e. They were limited by their ability scores requirements, races allowed, the fact that you had actual "sub-classes" of the larger/broader classes...a lot of different factors in 1e shaped how "common" the characters were perceived in the game world. The more rare/harder it was to be a class = the more powerful/more "stuff" the class could do. None of this "all the classes are the same" happy horseshite.

It's a game. Gimping leveling rates and casting times means that you favor one style of player over another.

Good catch. Ya got me. I DO favor certain syles of players over others, ENworld's political correctedness notwithstanding (and I agree with it and enjoy that it is enforced to maintain a civil discourse). Sue me. I'm human.

Specifically, as far as this thread is concerned, we are talking about "getting a 1e experience." There is nothing here about making everybody happy, "respecting" their personal preferences, or coddling them in some communal delusion that whatever they feel they should be entitled to is 'ok.' It's about getting a 1e-feeling game.

As stated, it's a thought exercise. I suspect, [EDITed to avoid a perception of personal attack] certain players [/EDIT] would not enjoy participating in a 1e feeling game. And that's cool/fine/if you're having fun go for it.

and I get the XP for gold and training ideas, but the rest of these seem excessively punitive for no good reason.

1e feel is a good enough reason for me. You don't have to agree.

Players who are "me, me, me" might worry about spell casters and other less simple classes having more power and versatility at higher levels, but players who are pro-team instead of pro-self ignore that crap.

Then the "me me me" players are rather perceptive, because those classes will [should] do.

The "me me me" players can also go jump in a lake. It's a game of fantasy and imagination, in a group! Interpersonal dynamics and working together to achieve goals. The "me me me" players can go back to their video games and tune out the rest of the world. I will not be missing them at my table [as a DM or a player].

 

[KarinsDad]

I also realize that the whole point of the thread was asking how to get a 1e feel in 5e. So, what's the matter?

I don't recall spells of level 4 and greater taking more than one round to cast in 1E. I may be misremembering, but this house rule has nothing to do with 1E or 1E feel.

You seem to be putting a few "this is how I feel about certain classes" houserules in and trying to disguise them as original 1E rules.

 

[fuindordm]

Hey guys, let's not derail the thread. Just let it go, OK?

 

[steeldragons]

I don't recall spells of level 4 and greater taking more than one round to cast in 1E. I may be misremembering, but this house rule has nothing to do with 1E or 1E feel.

You seem to be putting a few "this is how I feel about certain classes" houserules in and trying to disguise them as original 1E rules.

Again, No. I am not.

I stated, flat out, it is a houserule. It is something I instituted long ago, again for "feel", that more powerful magic is HARD to do. It can be dangerous (as you need the longer casting time opens you up to more opportunity for attack). "Higher level magic" is more complex, more powerful, more difficult to pull off. It mitigates, and has mitigated for a few decades now, the perception/attitude [and to an extent, reality] that as mages get higher in level, their abilities overshadow non-magic-users. It is [though I am loathe to use the world] a "balancing" measure...which I would think from your comments, you'd be all for.

...And it is simpler, more "across the board"/more easily implemented, than [ac]counting 1e's system of tracking different segments of spell casting for every blessed spell. So, applying it to a 5e seems like a no-brainer...to me.

[EDIT} And apologies. No desire for a derail/threadjack. I'm done here. Happy Friday all. [/EDIT]

 

[fuindordm]

I don't recall spells of level 4 and greater taking more than one round to cast in 1E. I may be misremembering, but this house rule has nothing to do with 1E or 1E feel.

No, that's not in AD&D as I recall. Most spells have casting times in segments, but the round wasn't over until everyone had gone.

Throughout the my groups typically played with a d10 initiative die and used these segments as the window of opportunity to interrupt a spell.

Caveat: the following is from memory, I never mastered the BtB treatment of spell interruption from the DMG.
In AD&D I think spell interruption only happened in the rare cases when a magic-user cast nearly adjacent to an opponent who could melee attack, and then you compared the segments to the speed factor to see who went first. Otherwise the rule was that if you were hit in melee you couldn't cast a spell, but you didn't lose it either.

 

[fuindordm]

Again, No. I am not.

I stated, flat out, it is a houserule. It is something I instituted long ago, again for "feel", that more powerful magic is HARD to do. It can be dangerous (as you need the longer casting time opens you up to more opportunity for attack). "Higher level magic" is more complex, more powerful, more difficult to pull off. It mitigates, and has mitigated for a few decades now, the perception/attitude [and to an extent, reality] that as mages get higher in level, their abilities overshadow non-magic-users.

Ah, I understand now. Personally I wouldn't go that far but it makes sense for some settings. I think 5th ed has already done a good job of addressing that imbalance by limiting the number of 6th-9th level spell slots so severely.

 

[fuindordm]

I also want a 5E game with a 1E feel, but for the moment I'm waiting for the DMG and the conversion guide before I set up any definitive house rules.

For more fun: do not roll any death saves / instant death saves until someone spending an action on the unconscious character.
The character is like Schrödingers cat: no one, not even the characters player, knows if the character is dead or alive until someone looking after him.

Learn spells
To learn new spells (including the spells automatically gained at level 1 and higher levels) a wizard must make an INT check vs. DC 15. Yes it is a high DC, but I would allow rerolls of failed checks when the caster gain a new level.

I'm a little scared to add too much difficulty to the dying process, since damage rolls are often high. In AD&D characters went below zero often but rarely below -10 in a single hit. I like introducing a level of exhaustion or some other penalty to characters that get taken down, though.

I really like the Schroedinger's Cat approach!

Learning spells: DC 15 is pretty hard. Would you let them add their proficiency bonus?

 

[Nebulous]

For me, I'd like to add in System Shock and Resurrection Survival. Sure they cast Raise Dead but they still have to make a CON check to survive the process. Or system shock on polymorph. Aging 1 year on use of Haste. Chance to learn spell is fine too,

YEAH. I miss System Shock and Res Survival. Actually, I'm thinking of tinkering with the death rules some in 5e. If you die from a crit, you can opt to survive, but lose one CON point permanently and you have to roleplay your injury, whatever that might be. Could explain how grizzled veterans lose limbs and such, which has no place in any core D&D game ever for the heroes.

 

[steeldragons]

Do the wizards mind that spells can take so long? They're basically don't do anything during the in-between rounds. A simpler house rule might be that if you're casting a spell in a round, you always go last, no matter what. But even then, i couldn't convince my players to go along with that, it's not how we've ever played.

<emphasis mine>
Just to touch on the bolded, for a second, That is, pretty much how combat was in B/X, BECM: namely, spells came toward the end of the your side's turn, followed only by melee attack. In 1e, then, yes, they added in tracking the casting segments, though still as in pre-AD&D, you declared what spell you wanted to cast before initiative was ever rolled. You had to "start" casting, not knowing if you'd get the spell off or not (often dependent on whether or not you'd win initiative).

But your spell came near the end of your side's turn, if not -assuming you weren't disrupted/took damage- near the end of the round, prior to the opposing side's melee attacks.

As to the "do wizards mind", it is simply accepted as part of how magic "works" in the setting. So, I'd have to say on the whole, no. If you need to get off an immediate "blast 'em" or quicky defensive spell, you have everything 3rd level or lower to use. Casting higher level magic requires a bit more effort, energy "build up", some forethought on the character's part, and thus, more time.

And i have not used XP for a long, long time. I level them up about every 4-5 sessions, as needed.

Well that is totally anathema to how I enjoy my D&D. But then, I prefer an older edition feel. It seems you [and your players] enjoy a decidedly not "1e feeling" game. And that's ok. hahaha.