D&D 5E Ghouls still not quite right in MM

[Nebulous]

I've had some other ideas.

--After the initial failed save, all subsequent saves must be rolled with disadvantage
--After the initial failed save, a successful subsequent save merely suspends the condition for one round, rather than ending it.
--After the initial failed save, subsequent failed saves inflict x damage--you may forego any save to avoid this damage.
--After the initial failed save, subsequent saves are allowed only if another character spends their action to attempt to "wake up" the afflicted character.

For now I'm running the game mostly as written, but at some point I probably will slap down one of these limitations on (at the very least) certain iconic monster abilities.

those are all good ideas. I guess what i'd like to see in a monster stat block is certain "similar" conditions have different, um, parameters, to indicate their relative strength. Like a mild paralysis vs. an extreme paralysis. But yeah, having a pack of ghouls hounding someone already down is very, very deadly all by itself anyway.

 

[Nebulous]

Yep. 1st hit paralyzes one. Second, if in melee, is an auto-crit, for two death saves failed. 3rd hit, also in melee, is another auto-crit, for 2 more, total 4, death saves of 3 allowed.

And the player can't argue "but i'm down! The monsters would attack someone else!" well, it's a brain-eating zombie ghoul thing, it's going to keep ripping you up ;(

 

[Psikerlord#]

Yeah that feasting quality of ghouls makes them very scary, if they have a chance in combat to finish someone, I guess they would!

 

[the Jester]

Can i clarify something?

If a ghoul paralyzes you and you're down and unconscious, and two more ghouls attack you the same round...both hit (both attack at Advantage) so that counts as two critical hits...and thus 4 death saves...thus you're immediately dead?

Yep. 1st hit paralyzes one. Second, if in melee, is an auto-crit, for two death saves failed. 3rd hit, also in melee, is another auto-crit, for 2 more, total 4, death saves of 3 allowed.

Bear in mind that you only need to make death saves if you're at 0, not if you're just paralyzed.

 

[Uller]

Yep. 1st hit paralyzes one. Second, if in melee, is an auto-crit, for two death saves failed. 3rd hit, also in melee, is another auto-crit, for 2 more, total 4, death saves of 3 allowed.

Just to make sure I'm not missing something here...this is only if you are dying. If you are paralyzed and above zero hp the autocrit only causes damage. Only if you are at zero hp do you take two death save failures (as per "Damage at 0 hitpoints" rule on page 76 of basic d&d rules) Paralysis has nothing to do with death saves.

 

[Nebulous]

Just to make sure I'm not missing something here...this is only if you are dying. If you are paralyzed and above zero hp the autocrit only causes damage. Only if you are at zero hp do you take two death save failures (as per "Damage at 0 hitpoints" rule on page 76 of basic d&d rules) Paralysis has nothing to do with death saves.

Yes, you are correct. My original question included "down and unconscious" to clarify that. Otherwise you're just taking double damage, but not double death saves (although with a pack of ghouls around you with advantage, you're not going to stay at positive hit points very long!)

 

[Dausuul]

Can i clarify something?

If a ghoul paralyzes you and you're down and unconscious... and two more ghouls attack you the same round...both hit (both attack at Advantage) so that counts as two critical hits...and thus 4 death saves...thus you're immediately dead?

Just a note, the paralysis doesn't matter in this scenario. If you're unconscious, any hit from a monster within 5 feet of you is an auto-crit and will impose two failed death saves.

To anyone who dislikes the "save each round" rule, I very strongly recommend you try playing the game with the rules as written before you house rule anything.

Combats in 5e are quick and brutal. A single round is an eternity when you are paralyzed, and every attack against you has advantage, and every hit against you is an auto-crit.

There is also the very real likelihood that, when fighting multiple ghouls, you will be re-paralyzed before your next turn begins.

Quoted for truth. Ghouls are scary. One ghoul can be dealt with, but facing a pack of them, there is a substantial risk of catastrophe. A couple of bad saves and things can go pear-shaped very fast.

 

[Nebulous]

Just a note, the paralysis doesn't matter in this scenario. If you're unconscious, any hit from a monster within 5 feet of you is an auto-crit and will impose two failed death saves.

Yeah, very true. I think what makes it particularly horrifying is that if your allies are paralyzed too, they can't help, and you're all kinda screwed

 

[Uller]

I think my take on ghoul behavior (and I think I'm generally a not too lethal DM) is that ghouls are not tacticians. They have no fear and will attack any living humanoid they encounter. They will gang up on a weaker or paralyzed target to bring it down but once it is at 0 hp they will only continue to attack it (I.e.feed on it) if the can do so unmolested. Otherwise they will attack the next standing foe. So if you have 4 ghouls vs 4 pcs it is unlikely every one will be paralyzed as the ghouls will attack the weakest target they can and a paralyzed target is obviously weak.

 

[KarinsDad]

Yeah, very true. I think what makes it particularly horrifying is that if your allies are paralyzed too, they can't help, and you're all kinda screwed

Sounds like a perfect encounter. Lot's of fun. Plenty of dread.


In 3E, undead sometimes drained negative energy levels. Now that was dread. I've forgotten the vast majority of the many hundreds of encounters I ever ran, but I remember a barrow mound from over a decade ago where the players were actually dreading opening the next door.