D&D 5E Ghouls still not quite right in MM

[Uller]

I think anything that paralyzes is scary, and I think save each round is balanced. If you want more oomph from your ghouls just add more of them. Remember too that when a target is paralyzed any attacks are at adv - and any melee hits are auto crits.

You know what? I completely missed the change in the paralyzed condition from the last play test. Autocrit makes them tougher. Nevermind...I'll keep them as written in the MM.

And yeah...I'm fine with the save every round. I want my players and my monsters to be able to act. Losing one round of actions (and all hits are autocrtits) is enough.

 

[Nebulous]

You know what? I completely missed the change in the paralyzed condition from the last play test. Autocrit makes them tougher. Nevermind...I'll keep them as written in the MM.

And yeah...I'm fine with the save every round. I want my players and my monsters to be able to act. Losing one round of actions (and all hits are autocrtits) is enough.

Holy crap. I missed the autocrit thing too. that makes a huge difference.

 

[Nebulous]

I had a similar experience - my brother was DMing the Al-Qadim A thousand and one adventures set and we got lured into a trap with a bunch of ghouls (and one ghast). In the first round, over half the party was paralyzed. By the end of the second, I was the only one still standing (an elf enchanter). I spend the next dozen rounds or so playing fox and hounds with the ghouls & ghast. Finally the ghast caught me.

"It's too bad you guys didn't find the secret escape door out of the room," he told us after the fight, after also telling us by the encounter's description the ghouls were supposed to spend the first couple of rounds paralyzing and devouring the other NPCs in the room first - to give us a chance to search.

"Bro, my elf had a 2 in 6 chance of spotting secret doors just by passing by them"

"Oh?"

I once made the mistake of luring my PCs into a deathtrap. There was a whole line of archers on horseback at distance, they could annihilate the party at range without repercussions. Behind them was a cave/temple full of vampires about to wake up at dusk. There was a sacred shrine where the party would be safe inside, and i expected them to SEARCH and find it (it was easy to find) but they thought i had put them into an un-winnable fight and would just die, they practically gave up and ended the session.

Taught me a valuable lesson.

 

[Agamon]

1 round of paralysis should in itself be heartstopping. Long enough for another ghoul to tear your throat out. The other PCs are forced to adapt their tactics. Or are your ghouls being "nice" and the scavengers only attacking people who are on their feet? Any longer than that and the PC should end up dead.

On the other hand paralysed for the combat is sheer buzzkill. You might as well go away and get a drink - there's absolutely nothing you can do. You'll either be rolling up a new character or you won't. It's Russian Roulette as far as you are concerned. And rolling up a character in 5e is a pain.

I was with you up to that last sentence. While getting shut down for the fight in round one is lame, is making a PC in 5e really that rough? I could come up with something I could play in 10 minutes and then flesh it out after the session.

 

[KarinsDad]

FYI, having done the math now, twelve ghouls is *exactly* a medium encounter for a group of four level 10 adventurers.
Which is fair as the wizard will obliterate them if they get a spell off first or the cleric if they can turn undead, but if the ghouls have the element of surprise and get the drop on the PCs they might be able to quickly paralyze half the party.

And then be turned by the Cleric or obliterated by the Wizard. Yes, foes can sometimes get past the front ranks, but rarely.


On second thought, 12 might be a bit much.

 

[KarinsDad]

I was with you up to that last sentence. While getting shut down for the fight in round one is lame, is making a PC in 5e really that rough? I could come up with something I could play in 10 minutes and then flesh it out after the session.

Depends on if the PC is a spell caster or not.

Depends on how well the player knows the PHB since presumably, the rest of the people at the table want to continue playing without the DM stopping to help a player create a PC.

And, it depends on whether the DM has that player play that PC from then on, or not. A lot of players might zone a bit before coming up with a concept that they want to play (as opposed to just playing for the rest of the evening).

 

[Uller]

And then be turned by the Cleric or obliterated by the Wizard. Yes, foes can sometimes get past the front ranks, but rarely.


On second thought, 12 might be a bit much.

I think when you consider that the autocrit isnt coming from the ghouls but the level appropriate monster that is with them...then things get considerably more frightening for the paralyzed wizard or cleric. A typical cr 10 monster scoring autocrits is going to be putting out 100 or more points of damge per round. Not too many PCs can take that kind of damage. Especially not wizards.

 

[Joe Liker]

To anyone who dislikes the "save each round" rule, I very strongly recommend you try playing the game with the rules as written before you house rule anything.

Combats in 5e are quick and brutal. A single round is an eternity when you are paralyzed, and every attack against you has advantage, and every hit against you is an auto-crit.

There is also the very real likelihood that, when fighting multiple ghouls, you will be re-paralyzed before your next turn begins.

Making paralysis longer-lasting is a sure recipe for a TPK.

 

[Ruined]

I had a similar experience - my brother was DMing the Al-Qadim A thousand and one adventures set and we got lured into a trap with a bunch of ghouls (and one ghast). In the first round, over half the party was paralyzed. By the end of the second, I was the only one still standing (an elf enchanter). I spend the next dozen rounds or so playing fox and hounds with the ghouls & ghast. Finally the ghast caught me."

Was that the one at the bottom of a well? We had a new GM run that one, and would have been a TPK save for one player with a twinked-out character that happened to be an elf. Immunity to paralysis for the win, I suppose.

 

[Nebulous]

To anyone who dislikes the "save each round" rule, I very strongly recommend you try playing the game with the rules as written before you house rule anything.

Combats in 5e are quick and brutal. A single round is an eternity when you are paralyzed, and every attack against you has advantage, and every hit against you is an auto-crit.

There is also the very real likelihood that, when fighting multiple ghouls, you will be re-paralyzed before your next turn begins.

Making paralysis longer-lasting is a sure recipe for a TPK.

Yes, i will probably not house rule anything now after seeing this thread.