Giant Crocodile - Strong CR4?

[Olaf the Stout]

I put my party (4 level 7 PC's, 1 level 6 PC) up against a Giant Crocodile from the MM last session. Let's just say that I'm glad it attacked the PC with the most HP's first otherwise a PC or 2 might have died rather quickly. Here are the stats for it:

[sblock=Giant Crocodile Stats]
Crocodile, Giant: CR 4; LA —; Huge animal (aquatic); HD 7d8+28; hp 59; Init +1; Spd 20 ft., swim 30 ft.; AC 16 (–2 size, +1 Dex, +7 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 15; Base Atk +5; Grp +21; Atk Bite +11 melee (2d8+12) or tail slap +11 melee (1d12+12); Full Atk (same); Space/Reach 15 ft./10 ft.; SA improved grab; SQ hold breath, low–light vision; AL (Always) N; SV Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +3; Str 27, Dex 12, Con 19, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2.

Skills and Feats: Hide +1, Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +16; Alertness, Endurance, Skill Focus (Hide). (A crocodile has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line. A crocodile gains a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks when in the water. Further, a crocodile can lie in the water with only its eyes and nostrils showing, gaining a +10 cover bonus on Hide checks.)

Hold Breath (Ex): A crocodile can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 4 x its Constitution score before it risks drowning.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a crocodile must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, the crocodile establishes a hold on the opponent with its mouth and drags it into deep water, attempting to pin it to the bottom.[/sblock]
The combat went like this:

Crocodiles sneaks up on the party's longboat from behind. Fighter fails his Spot vs. Crocodile Hide check. No other characters are looking in that direction to try and spot it.

Surprise Round: Crocodile successfully attacks Fighter, biting him from for over 20 points damage. Succeeds in grapple check and pins the Fighter.

First Round: Fighter doesn't escape the grapple. Other PC's try to attack the Crocodile, some hit but don't do anywhere near the 59 points of damage required to kill it. Crocodile bites the Fighter for another 20+ damage. Wins another grapple check and starts trying to drown the Fighter.

Second Round: Fighter manages to get off a Lightning Bolt from his Weapon of Legacy Longbow that he was holding when the Crocodile bit him. Croc fails his save and is taken to about 1/2 HP's. Other PC's attack again, some hits, some misses. Sorcerer hits the Croc with a Fireball, killing him.

End result: Level 7 Fighter nearly killed in 2 rounds (plus a surprise round) by a creature that the party should have been able to take 2 on at the same time.

If he had taken 1 more bite he probably would have been unconscious. If any other PC had been grabbed they probably would have been unconscious after 2 bites. What made this even more remarkable was that the fighter had not taken that much damage in the campaign to date (about 14 sessions). He is an archer so he stays at the back most of the time and has an AC in the mid-20's due to a 21 Dex.

The problem with the Croc was the fact that it got a free Grapple when it hit with its bite. With a Grapple check of +21 (is that even correct?) most characters aren't going to be able to escape. That means that unless the party can kill it, whoever is in its mouth will either get bitten to death or drown without much chance.

Does a +11 to attack with 2d8+12 damage per round (plus Improved Grab) seem a little strong for a CR4 creature to anyone else? I know that it has a low AC but that doesn't really matter once it has you in it's mouth now does it.

Olaf the Stout

If I have put this in the wrong place mods please feel free to move it. The only monster area I could see was under House Rules and I really didn't think that it fit in there.

 

[IanB]

Hm, given the lack of facing rules in D&D, I probably would have given them all spot checks. Longboats aren't very big.

Did you apply a penalty for the crocodile moving while hiding?

I think the giant crocodile is probably about right for CR 4, although it is at the high end, since it also has reach.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Hm, given the lack of facing rules in D&D, I probably would have given them all spot checks. Longboats aren't very big.

Did you apply a penalty for the crocodile moving while hiding?

I think the giant crocodile is probably about right for CR 4, although it is at the high end, since it also has reach.

The rest of the party was having a dicussion about what to do next at the time the attack happened so they weren't paying much attention to their surroundings, hence I didn't give them Spot checks.

The Crocodile was drifting down the river with the current, rather than actually moving so I didn't think that he should have a penalty to his Hide check. The Fighter rolled pretty low which didn't really help.

Even if the Fighter had spotted it beforehand I still don't think that it would have made a huge difference. The Croc had about a 50% chance to hit and then a 90%+ chance of winning the grapple. The Fighter (and maybe the rest of the group) might have got 1 shot in before the Croc.

However they would have probably only attacked with weapons, not thinking that it was too much of a threat. The only reason the Sorcerer used a fireball was because he saw how much damage the Fighter was taking from the Croc.

Olaf the Stout

 

[pallandrome]

Crocs are known to be one of the better creatures to wildshape into, or to summon for that matter. They are really nasty in the water, and still pretty tough on land. You are right, they are tough for a CR4. I'm not sure tough enough for a CR5 (at least, not out of water where most encounters take place), but certainly for a CR4.

 

[Infiniti2000]

+5 BAB +8 STR +8 size = +21

You were nice by having the croc stay above the water and bite the fighter. If the croc dragged the fighter down then the sorcerer would lose line of effect for the fireball.

The croc cannot both bite and drag his victim away. He most assuredly cannot pin the fighter in the first round.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Surprise Round: Crocodile successfully attacks Fighter, biting him from for over 20 points damage. Succeeds in grapple check and pins the Fighter.

In the surprise round, the crocodile only gets a standard action (plus free actions). He can make a single bite, triggering Improved Grab and allowing him to initiate a grapple, but he can't attempt to pin until the next round; attempting a pin requires a separate grapple check made in place of an attack, and the crocodile's all out of attacks...

-Hyp.

 

[nittanytbone]

Weaknesses:

1) Its really big. Huge, in fact. So it can't really fit into many environments. This must have been a very large river.

2) It has a really low AC. Fighters should be power-attacking the heck out of it. A fourth level barbarian with 18 str (+4 raging) and maxed out power attacks should be doing 7 weapon + 9 str + 8 power attack = 24 HP of damage per round. That means it drops in 2-3 rounds. From just one character's damage.

3) It has an even lower touch AC. That means mages should be using nasty ranged touch attack or touch spells on it. Even Ray of Enfeeblement helps tone down its damage. Touch of Idiocy takes it out of the fight by reducing its intelligence to zero.

4) It has poor Will saving throws. If you throw a decent will save (illusions, charms, holds, etc) at it, it'll likely fail.

5) It can only drag down one victim at a time, leaving the rest of the party free to have a free for all on it.

All of these things are readily observable: Very large animals often have poor AC, poor will saves, and poor mobility. If the party didn't exploit any of these weaknesses, no wonder it did very well.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Touch of Idiocy takes it out of the fight by reducing its intelligence to zero.

"This penalty can’t reduce any of these scores below 1."

-Hyp.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

You were nice by having the croc stay above the water and bite the fighter. If the croc dragged the fighter down then the sorcerer would lose line of effect for the fireball.

The croc cannot both bite and drag his victim away. He most assuredly cannot pin the fighter in the first round.

Writing mistake.

In the game, as it was happening, I actually said that the croc pins the Fighter and the players pointed out to me that he couldn't do that in 1 attack.

The Fighter was actually pinned in the 1st round not the surprise round. He then dragged the Fighter into the water on the second round.

As for the fireball, I was also nice enough to say that the fireball catches the croc but not the Fighter. The main reason that I made that ruling was not to bog the game down in a rules discussion. Since the session is over I may as well bring it up now.

The crocodile was a huge creature. As such the Sorcerer wanted to aim his fireball so that it got the croc but not the medium-size Fighter in its mouth. I didn't think that he could. With no facing in 3.5 I ruled that the Fighter also counted as being in all the squares as the croc. To keep things moving in the game I let the Sorcerer do it anyway. What do you think? Should you be able to hit a huge creature with a AoE spell and not hit the medium-sized creature in his mouth?

Olaf the Stout

 

[Olaf the Stout]

In the surprise round, the crocodile only gets a standard action (plus free actions). He can make a single bite, triggering Improved Grab and allowing him to initiate a grapple, but he can't attempt to pin until the next round; attempting a pin requires a separate grapple check made in place of an attack, and the crocodile's all out of attacks...

-Hyp.

And therein lies my mistake!

I let the croc initiate a grapple as a free action as per Improved Grab rules. Next round I let him make a grapple check to pin the Fighter and still let him bite as well. That was like letting him have 2 actions for the price of one.

My bad. Thankfully the Fighter wasn't killed from this otherwise I might be feeling a little guilty right now. I'll make sure that I remember that for next time.

Just to clarify my rules knowledge some more. Once the croc has him pinned in his mouth, shouldn't he get the bite damage automatically each round though? How can he "miss" him when he's in his mouth?

Olaf the Stout