Mishihari Lord
First Post
Dilvish the Damned (Zelazny)
Corwin of Amber (Zelazny)
Sparhawk (Eddings)
Off the top of my head ...
Gishes themes, classes, paragon paths and concepts
- Thread starter GMforPowergamers
- Start date
Dilvish the Damned (Zelazny)
Corwin of Amber (Zelazny)
Sparhawk (Eddings)
Off the top of my head ...
Starfox
Hero
This:
Because a F/Mu still has only one action a round, he does not dominate nearly as much as you'd think. That's why this (and every other multiclass, really) has to be 2/3 Fighter, 2/3 Mage, not 50/50.
That spells in DnD are often so superior to swords that spending time swinging your sword is a losing option for a F/Mu is really a completely separate issue.
Because a F/Mu still has only one action a round, he does not dominate nearly as much as you'd think. That's why this (and every other multiclass, really) has to be 2/3 Fighter, 2/3 Mage, not 50/50.
That spells in DnD are often so superior to swords that spending time swinging your sword is a losing option for a F/Mu is really a completely separate issue.
KesselZero
First Post
What exactly did the Gray Mouser have in terms of magic? (This is an honest question born of it being years since I last read the F&tGM stories.) I remember him grounding himself with a wire to avoid getting zapped in "Ill-Met in Lankhmar" but that's about it, so I'm remembering him more as a rogue who knows about magic but doesn't really use it himself. Please illuminate.
Rules-wise, I really want proper multiclassing to come back so we can have F/MUs and R/MUs, both of which I love. Somehow the 4e method of simply making new classes that fill the role never really satisfied me; I want my F/MU to have fighter and wizard powers, not a bunch of teleports (as was pointed out about the Swordmage). I do like the Bladesinger, though; I think it decently captures the "mostly melee with a few arcane tricks up his sleeve" type of F/MU.
Also, thanks for the etymology of "gish." I've always wondered about that term. How exactly is it used for Githyanki in-game-- is it a specific class/job/caste of people like "knight" or "samurai," or just a Githyanki word like "magic-user?" How was it used for OD&D elves? Did it actually appear in official sources or was it just a slang word used by players who'd heard it in White Dwarf?
Rules-wise, I really want proper multiclassing to come back so we can have F/MUs and R/MUs, both of which I love. Somehow the 4e method of simply making new classes that fill the role never really satisfied me; I want my F/MU to have fighter and wizard powers, not a bunch of teleports (as was pointed out about the Swordmage). I do like the Bladesinger, though; I think it decently captures the "mostly melee with a few arcane tricks up his sleeve" type of F/MU.
Also, thanks for the etymology of "gish." I've always wondered about that term. How exactly is it used for Githyanki in-game-- is it a specific class/job/caste of people like "knight" or "samurai," or just a Githyanki word like "magic-user?" How was it used for OD&D elves? Did it actually appear in official sources or was it just a slang word used by players who'd heard it in White Dwarf?
Both Fafhrd & Grey Mouser were described as having learned some magics from their respective patrons...
As for what kind of gish I want? I want a variety of paths to the martial arcanist/psionicist/divine caster: multiclassing (3.5 and hybrids), mixed-theme base classes, prestige classes/paragon paths/kits, feats, alternative class features, and anything else that has been tried that I've forgotten.
As for what kind of gish I want? I want a variety of paths to the martial arcanist/psionicist/divine caster: multiclassing (3.5 and hybrids), mixed-theme base classes, prestige classes/paragon paths/kits, feats, alternative class features, and anything else that has been tried that I've forgotten.
Crazy Jerome
First Post
And the Mouser started as an apprentice to a mage of some kind. In 3E or 4E terms, both of them would have some combination of use magic device and spellcraft, or arcana (skill) and a few rituals. In addition, the Mouser probably knew how to do a few minor cantrips (given his background in D&D terms), but I don't recall him every demonstrating that ability.
I know he does some "bardic"/"illusionist" casting in "The Lords of Quarmall"- accentuating his thespianic skills, and I seem to recall him doing some other materiel along the way. Nothing flashy, though.
thedungeondelver
Adventurer
Mouser cast a Death Spell from himself through his girlfriend, who was holding her father's wrist while said father was making her watch Mouser being tortured to death (daddy hated mages, and Mouser's first apprenticeship was under a magic-user). So he cast a Death Spell into her, which she then channeled into her father.
A little better than a 1st level magic-user!
Since there seems to be some interest, here's the rundown on the Mouser:
GRAY MOUSER (hero)
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVE: 12"
HIT POINTS: 96
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3/2 (or 3; see below)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon type
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSE: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
SIZE: M
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
CLERIC/DRUID: Nil
FIGHTER: 11th level fighter
MAGIC-USER/ILLUSIONIST: 3rd level magic-user
THIEF/ASSASSIN: 15th level thief
MONK/BARD: Nil
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
S: 16 (0, +1) I: 18 W: 14 D: 19 C: 17 CH: 18
This short man of the western cities supplies the refinement and delicacy his brawny partner lacks. He calls his rapier Scalpel and the dagger he uses (balanced for throwing) Cat's Claw. The Gray Mouser is very fond of studying things arcane, but has not the magical skills to master his studies. He has a great aversion to anything sharp being pointed at him, an aversion that has saved his life many times. He generally fights with Scalpel in his right hand and Cat's Claw in his left, incurring no penalties to hit due to his phenomenal dexterity. When so armed, he strikes 3 times per round, with a 50% chance that the third strike will be with either weapon.
While the Mouser grew up on the streets (with all that that implies), his teen years were spent with an old hedge magician who taught him the ways of law and a little magic. It was these days spent in the forests with his mentor that gave Mouser his streak of morality. It was shortly after this that the young man met his lifelong friend Fafhrd. While the Gray Mouser is a thief, a liar, and a trickster supreme, he can be rlied upon to keep faith for causes he supports and people he favors.
...
Fritz Leiber wrote a lot of stuff for early issues of THE DRAGON, so the liberties taken by statting up the Nehwon mythos in DEITIES & DEMI-GODS can be forgiven I reckon. There's a lot of rule bending - no, breaking - going on in those stats but as an NPC and an iconic one there's a lot of DM handwaving if you're gaming in Lanhkmar.
The magic of the stories of Fafhrd & The Gray Mouser seem to fall between three axes: low-level sorts of cantrips (by AD&D standards) that nonetheless are hard to pull off, insanely high-level ritual magic that requires a lot of prep time that nobody but arch-wizards can pull off (there's a whole story with Faf & Mou going after a wizard in Damascus - yes, that one - who is doing the whole lich-with-phylactary trick), and the outright alien stuff that nobody knows how/is handwaved by the author that Sheelba and Ningabule regularly perform.
Spoiler alert:
There's a cult of witches in Rime Isle (young girls, and all apparently white witches) who, in "The Mouser Goes Below" show a few cantrips, etc.
I know there was a LANKHMAR boxed set released, but were I to run an AD&D game set in Nehwon, I'd likely gin up something which, while using a lot of the creatures and so on in DEITIES & DEMI-GODS would revamp the magic system at the very least...
Sorry, I wandered a bit. Hope this was informative.
A little better than a 1st level magic-user!
Since there seems to be some interest, here's the rundown on the Mouser:
GRAY MOUSER (hero)
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVE: 12"
HIT POINTS: 96
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3/2 (or 3; see below)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon type
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSE: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
SIZE: M
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
CLERIC/DRUID: Nil
FIGHTER: 11th level fighter
MAGIC-USER/ILLUSIONIST: 3rd level magic-user
THIEF/ASSASSIN: 15th level thief
MONK/BARD: Nil
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
S: 16 (0, +1) I: 18 W: 14 D: 19 C: 17 CH: 18
This short man of the western cities supplies the refinement and delicacy his brawny partner lacks. He calls his rapier Scalpel and the dagger he uses (balanced for throwing) Cat's Claw. The Gray Mouser is very fond of studying things arcane, but has not the magical skills to master his studies. He has a great aversion to anything sharp being pointed at him, an aversion that has saved his life many times. He generally fights with Scalpel in his right hand and Cat's Claw in his left, incurring no penalties to hit due to his phenomenal dexterity. When so armed, he strikes 3 times per round, with a 50% chance that the third strike will be with either weapon.
While the Mouser grew up on the streets (with all that that implies), his teen years were spent with an old hedge magician who taught him the ways of law and a little magic. It was these days spent in the forests with his mentor that gave Mouser his streak of morality. It was shortly after this that the young man met his lifelong friend Fafhrd. While the Gray Mouser is a thief, a liar, and a trickster supreme, he can be rlied upon to keep faith for causes he supports and people he favors.
...
Fritz Leiber wrote a lot of stuff for early issues of THE DRAGON, so the liberties taken by statting up the Nehwon mythos in DEITIES & DEMI-GODS can be forgiven I reckon. There's a lot of rule bending - no, breaking - going on in those stats but as an NPC and an iconic one there's a lot of DM handwaving if you're gaming in Lanhkmar.
The magic of the stories of Fafhrd & The Gray Mouser seem to fall between three axes: low-level sorts of cantrips (by AD&D standards) that nonetheless are hard to pull off, insanely high-level ritual magic that requires a lot of prep time that nobody but arch-wizards can pull off (there's a whole story with Faf & Mou going after a wizard in Damascus - yes, that one - who is doing the whole lich-with-phylactary trick), and the outright alien stuff that nobody knows how/is handwaved by the author that Sheelba and Ningabule regularly perform.
Spoiler alert:
There's a cult of witches in Rime Isle (young girls, and all apparently white witches) who, in "The Mouser Goes Below" show a few cantrips, etc.
I know there was a LANKHMAR boxed set released, but were I to run an AD&D game set in Nehwon, I'd likely gin up something which, while using a lot of the creatures and so on in DEITIES & DEMI-GODS would revamp the magic system at the very least...
Sorry, I wandered a bit. Hope this was informative.
KesselZero
First Post
That's right! I'd forgotten all about his origin story.
Is there an example from literature of a character who leans a little more towards the arcane side? I can't think of one off the top of my head... maybe someone from Vance?
KesselZero
First Post
Immensely, and reminded me of some favorite stories that I need to re-read. Is the whole thing with the Mouser casting the death spell in his prequel origin story? That's where I remember it being (but I could be very wrong which is why I ask) and if so, it's interesting that he almost steps back from using powerful magic after that...
Where did these stats come from? Dude's got levels! I have the Lankhmar boxed set but it's a thousand miles away so I can't check it. What exactly was published in Deities & Demigods?
thedungeondelver
Adventurer
Understand, though, magic in Nehwon isn't AD&D magic (in spite of Mr. Lieber's (and Faf & Mou's!) apparent affinity for the game). It was implied in the description of the casting that doing so was really costing both Mouser and his then girlfriend a lot to be part of that spell. It kind of broke him physically and mentally to cast it. I'd say what it does to you (from an RP standpoint) is as rough as cacodaemon or wish or the like in AD&D (I mention AD&D specifically because I'm not well-read enough on high level things in later games to know if they exist there...)
This is from DEITIES & DEMI-GODS as written by Jim Ward and Rob Kuntz in 1980. Most (damn near all) of the material in that chapter would be ideal for setting up an AD&D Lankhmar campaign, but again with some prior tweaking of spells and so forth. What is in the NEHWON MYTHOS section of the book are many of the principals of the stories and most of the notable monsters. There are no maps nor plot reveals (in a major sense) but like all great AD&D things adventure seeds can be divined from descriptive text. One interesting thing that Kuntz & Ward did was create the stats for one "Pulgh". No such character is in the books by Lieber, however there is a fellow named Pulgh's Cousin who goes on about his relatives exploits for a line or two...creative license, I guess.
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