Giving +2 worth of class levels to dragons

[Shin Okada]

I have to do this, maybe for several dragons for some reason.

I need to make them stronger (+2 CR) but if I advance dragon by additional HD, that ratio is +1/2HD. And with +3 HD, the dragon advances in age category. And it will often change the age category of the said dragon and pushes up the CR even further. And what is worse, it will often change the size of the dragon and I do not have much huge-sized dragon minis.

So, maybe I can

A. Add 2 dragon racial HD (+1 CR) and add class levels worth +1CR.
B. Add class levels which worth +2 CR.

I have two questions to you guys.

The first one is, which method, and which class, do you prefer? Most of them are relatively young large sized dragons.

The second one is, in your opinion, which classes are associated class for a dragon and which is not?

Sorcerer is clearly an associated class for a spell casting dragons. Most warrior-type classes will be too, because Dragons are mainly melee monsters.

But how about those 3/4 BAB spell-casting classes like bard, cleric, druid, favored soul and such? Do you treat them as associated or non associated?

 

[nittanytbone]

I'd be tempted to throw on a +2 LA template for a quick and dirty fix. Doesn't require as much restatting as adding class levels does.

If you're set on adding class levels, I'd just throw on two fighter levels for simplicity's sake. Grab another pair of feats and a few extra HP. Unless your players are hyper-optimized, dragons will still be a serious threat.

 

[Nifft]

Barbarian levels. Woo-hoo! Con boosts breath weapon DC, you know.

Sorcerer levels. Meh.

Abjurant Champion levels. Hmmm!

Monk levels. (Wait, the dragon evades?!)

Rogue levels. (Five sneak attacks?! plus see above.)

Blackguard levels. (His saves are WHAT?!)

Cheers, -- N

 

[Goolpsy]

Go with fighter levels, they are the most ideal to use... Will also give benefit of feats.

Enjoy

 

[Nifft]

Go with fighter levels, they are the most ideal to use... Will also give benefit of feats.

Relative to Barbarian levels? Are you joking?

What two feats give you +2 to attack and damage, and +2x HD hp, and +2 DC for your breath weapon?

And what dragon builds are really feat-hungry? When I put together high-level dragons, I have feats to spare. Fighter is terrible relative to plain Dragon HD.

Seriously, what build needs those two feats?

Cheers, -- N

 

[brehobit]

If you are looking for the most powerful way to use those two levels and you don't mind some extra work, Bo9S classes are generally the best.

Swordsage in particular is nice: You get the AC bonus from Wis, and the stances and maneuvers. Pretty sweet. Consider a young adult blue dragon (CR 11). With two levels of SS you are talking about adding +2 AC, and having a initiate level of 11 (one 6th level maneuver, one 6th level stance, lots of 5th level maneuvers if you want.

I'd think about "Giant's stance" (be huge for damage purposes), or probably better, "shifting defense" (5' move with every missed attack) as the stance and Scorpion parry, stalking shadow, searing blade, burning blade, and zephyr dance.

Crusader and warblade are also nice, distributing healing (devoted spirit), bonuses (white raven) or just making them harder to hit with spells by a lot (diamond mind).

Mark

 

[darthkilmor]

I have to do this, maybe for several dragons for some reason.

I need to make them stronger (+2 CR) but if I advance dragon by additional HD, that ratio is +1/2HD. And with +3 HD, the dragon advances in age category. And it will often change the age category of the said dragon and pushes up the CR even further. And what is worse, it will often change the size of the dragon and I do not have much huge-sized dragon minis.

So, maybe I can

A. Add 2 dragon racial HD (+1 CR) and add class levels worth +1CR.
B. Add class levels which worth +2 CR.

I have two questions to you guys.

The first one is, which method, and which class, do you prefer? Most of them are relatively young large sized dragons.

The second one is, in your opinion, which classes are associated class for a dragon and which is not?

Sorcerer is clearly an associated class for a spell casting dragons. Most warrior-type classes will be too, because Dragons are mainly melee monsters.

But how about those 3/4 BAB spell-casting classes like bard, cleric, druid, favored soul and such? Do you treat them as associated or non associated?

The half-celestial template would give alot of nice spell-like abilities and SR greatre than dragons already have.

Also regarding feats, Draconomicon has some good dragon feats to differentiate your dragons and make them tougher, and if you decide fighter bonus feats can be used for monstrous feats in the book, well, that would be a fearsome dragon indeed.

 

[azhrei_fje]

Barbarian levels. Woo-hoo! Con boosts breath weapon DC, you know.

Agreed.

Rogue levels. (Five sneak attacks?! plus see above.)

Here's a good question. Assuming that you play that a dragon's reach with it's long neck allows it to attack a creature from its rear side, does the dragon flank with itself? For example, the reach of the neck is 15 feet. A Medium-size creature is next to the dragon. The dragon can stretch it's neck out so that the head comes in on the other side. Does the dragon flank with itself in this case? (Assume the use of the size variants from Draconomicon, if you feel that's necessary.)

 

[Thurbane]

Spellwarped is also a great template for dragons. It gives ability boosts, will probably improve SR, and changes type to aberration - which may foil Dragon Bane weapons etc.

 

[Nifft]

Here's a good question. Assuming that you play that a dragon's reach with it's long neck allows it to attack a creature from its rear side, does the dragon flank with itself?

If that were possible, then a spiked chain / spiked armor combo just got silly. I'm thinking that no, you can't flank with yourself.

Cheers, -- N